Dr .Stevens seems to be a very thoughtful person. But he does leave out the fact that not all Americans are believers in a higher power.

Since I am agnostic, religion is not my highest priority when expressing opinion on certain matters.

When I was pregnant at an older age with my baby at that time, I decided I didn't want to know if there were any problems, until another older pregnant mother convinced me that knowing I could go though the rest of my pregnancy without worrying about having a Down’s syndrome child would be 9 months of relief.

And so I had the Amniocentesis done, and the relief of knowing my child was perfect was a gift. Even if the prognosis was otherwise, I would have accepted the fact and moved on from there, but realize the fact that other parents may differ from my opinion and want to abort. I believe that is up to the biological mother and father and would not want to insert my opinion into their lives or choices.

It absolutely amazes me how liberals feel that murdering an innocent, unborn child is okay but they are pushing to abolish the death penalty for people who commit murder and other heinous acts. They feel these disgusting pedophiles, rapists, and murderers deserve to live but not an innocent child. Seems kind of two-faced doesn't it? It is laughable!

Kenny get over it. The Judge made his order over a year and a half ago. It is now the law. The junk belongs to the St. Joseph Museum Inc. If you think that money should go to the Pattee House, where gloves were made for more years than it was a hotel, it is also a private corporation. So what do you say to that?
As for Vince keeping $82,000 is it really that much? Does not the city pay the county some percent; say 2% to collect its taxes it is now reduced to like $70,000.00 some people will not pay their taxes so it is now $60,000.00 the city does not need to give away cash it does not have. Putting some of sort reserve fund aside is a good idea. The tax was for a city museum I looked at the ballot in 1948 it does not give a location. You are just catering to the fringe crowd, normal people will not talk to you unless forced too. You speak out of both sides of you mouth no private S. Joseph Museum Inc. but Pattee House Museum Inc, a privte corporation, you are willing to give money too, no wonder people about twn think you are a nut.

Rax:

The liberal credo is “leave me alone and let me do whatever I want to do.” They either can’t or won’t think things through to a logical conclusion. This is why whenever they are challenged with common sense they get angry and try to change the focus – much like a little child does. They point to someone else’s bad behavior to try to justify theirs.

I think they don’t realize or care how disgusting and stupid they look to those of us who do think for ourselves.

and it amazes me that conservatives can rail all day about abortion and never think a thing about a president invading a country and dropping bombs that kill thousands of women and children that they call collateral damage and they think that is ok? Actual people, living, breathing people, not a few cells that haven't taken on any form, but people that have been living for maybe a month, maybe 90 years. Does anyone get that reasoning????? Abortion is murder, bombing and killing is fine. Sorry, I don't get it.

I do not accept your reasoning because it is faulted. Please read a biology book, I suggest focusing on the chapter that discusses cell division. Then, read a book on human development, I suggest reading that entire book.
As far as "collateral damage" during war, when our military drops bombs to kill the people who get their kicks out of torturing and killing their own countrymen, it happens. I don't like it but it is going to happen. I wonder, do you shed tears for all of the innocent people in this country who get killed everyday in drive-by's, muurders, drug deals gone awry, etc.? I bet not. My only problem with the President's war strategy is that our military hasn't dropped enough bombs yet...or rather the right type of bomb.

Well, if you're going to inject "god" into the argument, let me point out a few things from the bible...

the bible says abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23

Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.

Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16

God sometimes approves of killing fetuses.

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17
(Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)

Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. -- Hosea 9:14

Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16

Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -- Hosea 13:16

God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents.

Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. -- 2 Samuel 12:14

God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.

Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24

if you don't agree with abortion, don't have one, but please don't use your twisted ideologies to exhert control over my reproductive rights.

Ginger:

I’m not going to waste a lot of time on this since it’s obvious you are anti-war and anything I might say will have no effect - even if I prove you wrong.

I’m sure that some civilians have been killed by some of our bombs, but thousands? Come on, get real. Ever heard of precision bombing?

“A president invading a country”? This was a country that we were in a cease fire with from a war. Saddam was not complying with the terms of this cease fire even to the point of firing on American and coalition aircraft. He also refused to work with the weapons inspectors. If you would like to debate the reasons we went into Iraq, let me know.

Your post proves my point from my last post…the following: “This is why whenever they are challenged with common sense they get angry and try to change the focus – much like a little child does. They point to someone else’s bad behavior to try to justify theirs.”

dalearch....

you don't believe its in the thousands? wow...you must watch fox news.
http://icasualties.org/oif/

check the above link and scroll down to see the Iraqi Security Forces and Civilian Deaths. Not to mention our own...

Boombaladee:

1. The link lists total casualties including terrorist’s bombs, homicide bombers, etc. ginger is saying that American bombs have killed thousands.

2. When I see a website referencing the New York Times – probably the most liberal rag in America – I immediately discount their credibility.

3. As a matter of fact I do watch Fox News. It’s just about the only place where I can hear both sides and make my own decisions. You libs don’t like it because it challenges what your puppet masters tell you to think and say, and would make you think for yourself.

dalearch....

1. i will give you that one, but just that one.
2. and 3....um, pot, meet kettle.... what is the threat level today? black?

boombaladee:

What does the threat level have to do with this conversation?

Talk about twisted ideology! It's hilarious (and very disturbing) the way you interpret these verses! Please list the exact verse that says "abortion is not murder"...not the one you "think" says it but the one that actually uses those words. If you cannot, then quit claiming it does. You can twist words around any way you want but abortion is the murder of a child, period.
Also, do me a favor, go to the hospital and tell a new Father and Mother that their new baby is just a blob of cells and not a human being....see what they think.

"their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -"

i'm not sure how else to "interpret" this. have at it if you know a better explanation than what's there in black and white.

I do not see any of those words in that phrase. Either show me the verse that has the following words in it (WRITTEN TOGETHER!) or quit referencing that it is there. It's also convenient the way you always take everything out of context.

Let's go over this again.....

Abortion---A B O R T I O N
is---I S
not---N O T
Murder---M U R D E R

When you find it please list book, chapter and verse.

if your god condones it, then its not murder...

my whole point is, use your head when it comes to these things, until a fetus is viable outside the womb, its just that, a fetus. a potential human. It is a woman's choice whether to put her body through a pregnancy and become a mother, not yours, not fox new's, not george bush's, not your bible's. I don't think women should be using abortions as birth control. In my opinion, unless there's a health reason, it should be done before the first trimester. but see, that's just MY opinion. Just like you have YOUR opinion. so, why doesn't everyone just shut up and put all of their resources towards sex education and education about birth control, then it wouldn't be such a problem, would it? and i'm not talking about "abstinence only" sex ed. that SHOULD be banned.

Apparently you had trouble finding the verse.... no surprise. Out of curiosity, at what stage can we consider a human "viable"? I love your last line.... God forbid we try to do something as stupid as promoting abstinence in teens....how awful it would be if they didn't have sex until they became reaponsible adults....Oh, the humanity!!

no, there is no verse that says that abortion is not murder, it was a subject line meant to grab your attention, but keep on cherry-picking like you all tend to do. Can you point out a part in the bible that says "abortion is murder?"

Exodus 21:22 (RSV) When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine.

Of the 31,273 verses in the Bible, there is no mention of abortion as a voluntary termination of a pregnancy. The above verse is the only one that mentions a penalty for causing an accidental termination of a pregnancy. It says the person at fault has to pay the husband a fine.

It then goes on to mention that if the woman is harmed however, then it’s a life for a life, an eye for an eye, etc…

So the killing of a woman results in death but the killing of a fetus results in only a fine.

It would seem that if the Bible considered abortion murder, then the penalty for killing a fetus should also be death?

and, studies have shown that abstinence only education DOES NOT WORK.

boombaladee:

Wow! Way to go and keep it up. You are really putting it to these good ol' white boys and I appreciate it. Thanks for your terrific input.

I'm no doctor, I don't even play one on TV, but I think it's pretty easy to avoid becoming pregnant in the first place, if the correct, responsible "choice" is made in the begining. Why follow a bad choice with an even worse one?

exactly, it's pretty easy to avoid becoming pregnant, but parents aren't doing their jobs educating their children, people make bad choices, but that's just it...it's THEIR choice. not yours.

Also, Mr. America, who says it's a bad choice? it's not always the best choice, but sometimes its the right choice for some women.

I agree it's their choice to make. Did I say otherwise? I think if you polled women that have had their babies killed, the majority would say it was a bad chioce to get pregnant.

you're probably right, but you lose credibility when you use inflamatory language like, "had their babies killed"
the majority of abortions are done very early...you make it sound like every person that has had an abortion has done so when the fetus is at 8 months gestation.

Sometimes the truth is ugly, and I choose not to sugar coat the truth. I understand it might make people feel bad. I think I can live with that. The choice to eliminate a collection of cells, I could not live with because I know these cells constitute a baby.

its not the truth, but whatever. and those cells don't "constitute" a baby. they have the propensity to become a baby over time.
each side will never agree on this, so it's kind of stupid to argue. why can't the sides agree that sex education and raising our children to make better decisions, not based on fear or guilt or in lonliness, but on knowledge?

viable = able to live

Those cells don't form a baby? what else might they have a propensity to become over time? Wrist watch, turnip, maybe a turtle? I also think both sides agree that parents across the board should do a better job raising their children. I'm all for kids making well informed and responsible decisions.

Abstinence education works very well if the parents begin teaching it at a young age and reinforce it. The problem with that is that parents today see nothing wrong with a 15 year old (or even younger) having sex as long as it is "safe". What a crock!

Janiepoo....For the record, she is not "putting it to us" I find her postings hilarious! Reading them is better than reading the comics!

no, kids at 15 shouldn't be having sex...i've never met anyone other than 15 year olds that think that they should. but they're going to, and most conservative groups would rather hide the information that they need if they're going to than inform them about the gravity of consequenses if they don't do it safely.

you would find my comments funny, that's ok...it doesn't bother me at all. i find yours scary and ill thought out.

I think it's funny that Rax's thoughts about abstinence education and parents reinforcing these principles come across as scary and ill thought out to boombaladee.

well, what it sounds like rax wants us to do is tell our children "don't have sex, you will get pregnant and die." and leave it at that. pretty scary to me.

"don't have sex, you will get pregnant and die." A little over the top I think.

You have quite an imagination boombaladee. I didn't draw the same conclusion from Rax's Comment.

hello, was being a tad sarcastic there...

If a parent doesn't think their daughter is going to have sex at 15 then why get a prescription for birth control pills? And don't give me that crap about "it's just to control periods". The huge majority of parents get them so that their "baby" doesn't end up getting pregnant. Also, some schools hand out condoms, you don't think they believe it's alright for kids to have sex? If they don't then why are they handing them out? If that isn't promoting sex among teens then what is? That, my friend is what's scary!

its not promoting it at all, it's preventing disease. kids will have sex. they are not the best decision makers. you can jump up and down and shout about how awful it is to have sex and what will happen to them and they will still do it, whether they are preacher's kids or their dad's in the pen, teenagers will have sex. you cannot stop it, you can only give them education and tools to do it safely.
by the way, i don't think that schools should give them out either, if a kid thinks they're responsible enough to have sex, then they should be responsible enough to buy their own birth control

Following your line of thinking we might as well toss in a carton of cigarettes and a 12 pack of beer.... heck, they're going to do it anyway right? We cannot stop it right? Just make sure you buy them cans instead of bottles, we don't want them to accidentally break one and get cut. After all, we want to teach them to be safe right.
Not only do schools hand out condoms, this school board wants to give condoms out to kids as Prom gifts. That's not promoting sex?

I must say that I truly feel sorry for any young person who looks to you for guidance. You make it very easy to understand why we have so many problems with our society.

Here's the link to that wonderful school board:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=61003

your are not following my line of thinking at all. condoms keep kids safe. they don't cause the problem at all. its poor parental guidance and lack of serious education on the subject that causes the problem. rax, i feel sorry for any kid that comes to you with questions, cause you won't give them any answers.
i'm done discussing it with you because you obviously don't grasp that you could be wrong, and that you are not all knowing and all seeing.

boombaladee:

I believe you said:

"....um, pot, meet kettle....." It seems this phrase now also applies to you.

You too don't seem to believe you could possibly be wrong either.

Don't get me wrong I'm not agreeing with Rax or with you for that matter but come on he's not the only one that appears to think he could never be wrong.

i don't claim to be right or wrong, i'm saying we all have opinions, and that i don't agree with him. somehow he thinks he's the uterus police

It all comes down to parenting folks. Teach your kids about sex and it's consequenses and help them make the right choices. Period.

Dear RAX:
Since I have been certified to teach K-12 health with a lifetime degree for the last 35 years I believe I know a little bit about biology.

Dropping bombs and calling it "shock and awe" and thinking it is "awesome" when not knowing the actual amount of innocent women and children who were killed, is sick and sad.

We don't even keep track of the amount of human casualty we occur anymore. At least when we nuked Japan we could report that over 500,000 innocent women and children and civilians were killed.

Really when you consider the bombings of Hamburg and other German cities and the nuking of Japan, without even considering today "that we might have been the actual original terrorists of the world." And at that time we didn't even target military bases but cities with civilians who had nothing to do with the government's policies.

Those that shout and cry and go on about abortion without considering what we have done to other countries seem beyond the absurd to me.

Birth control: 20.00 dollars

Abortion: 1500.00 dollars

Killing innocent civilians: priceless

MODem your satirical comments are always right on. Like Stephan Colbert you make the point short and sweet. Thank you for your funny input.

Ginger,

You should be ashamed of yourself for insulting our veterans and our country by implying they were the first terrorist. They fought tyranny and for your right to make ridiculous comments. I make no apologies for being an American. It's sad they are so many self loathing, anti-American, ultra PC, bleeding heart liberals in this country.

You liberals bitch and moan about how awful our military is and yet you sit back and enjoy the fruits of our military's "labor". You make your comments without having to worry about censorship and enjoy all other rights that have been fought for. Do you know how many liberal passivists it takes to keep our country safe? The answer is no, we never will because you just run and hide in your basements until the trouble is over then come out and whine about the mess that's been made.
I wish we could take a poll of teen mothers in this country and see how many were raised by liberal parents versus conservative parents. Something tells me it would lean very heavily in one particular direction.
I hope you all have a great, safe, free day!

exactly what "freedom" are we fighting for in Iraq? (besides theirs) and I don't believe anyone is accusing our soldiers of being terrorists, more the government that lied to them and sent them there. I know plenty of soldiers who feel betrayed by our government and don't agree with the war. Rax, you are too blind to see that what you're saying is hypocritical. its okay to kill thousands of innocent people abroad, but not ok to terminate a pregnancy? wow...this is your brain on fox news.

Rax:

Normally I would help you out here, but I’ve learned that you can’t win an argument with the helplessly ignorant.

I will, however, quote Senator Joe Lieberman – a democrat turned Independent:

"There is something profoundly wrong when opposition to the war in Iraq seems to inspire greater passion than opposition to Islamist extremism. What is profoundly wrong is that too many of us are operating off the default assumption that America is wrong, and have lost sight of who our real enemies are.”

I have a degree in P.E. Would you like fries with that?

It's funny how the agnostic/atheists like to take the bible LITERALLY when they try and make a point with religious people. Why can't you admit that you have no idea what you are talking about when you speak of bible-knowledge? You just cherry-pick the juiciest parts of the Old Testamant and argue nonsensically.

Ginger, when the egg and sperm unite a unique human being is created instantaneously. It's not a "potential person", it is a fully-created human being with all of the genetic material it will ever need to grow into an old man/woman. Just because it's small and located inside another human being does not mean it is not deserving of our respect and protection. If people could stop de-humanizing the blastocyst and realize that he/she is no different than an infant outside the womb, we could have a true discussion about the validity of abortion. De-humanizing any part of the population, whether they are on death row, in a foreign country, a different color, in utero, etc. is morally reprehensible. I want to protect all forms of life, especially those who cannot protect themselves. As a health educator, you should know the "few cells" that make up the blastocyst constitute a fully-formed genetic representation of a unique person.

Notice I'm talking biology here and not religious dogma. If someone can tell me how the newly formed blastocyst is not a human being, please let me know.

ACTUALLY, I'M A GIRL.
and i'm not "pro-abortion" i don't go around encouraging people to get abortions cause it's the cool thing to do or anything. I'm PRO-CHOICE, PRO-EDUCATION, PRO-RATIONAL THOUGHT, and ANTI-OLD PEOPLE MAKING REPRODUCTIVE DECISIONS FOR ME.

Comparing abortion with Middle East operations is like comparing apples and orangutans.

Several thousand innocents were killed on 9/11/01 and by other terrorist actions committed by the peace-loving Muslims. Thank God (Allah?) 9/11 hasn't reoccurred. If the U.S. were not over there, I wonder how many thousands of other domestic innocents would be Toes Up.

I understand the feelings and emotions of you strongly opposed to abortion. I couldn't possibly imagine my almost-7 year old boy being sucked out of my wife with a vaccuum cleaner. However, this still is the U.S.A., where I believe a person's choices about their body should not be regulated (nor paid for) by the government.

That is such an absurd statement gladimgone. To suggest that our being in Iraq has prevented further terrorist attacks on our country is ridiculous. As we all know now, Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with the 9/11 attack. Our military actions in Iraq have done nothing but make radical Muslims hate us more and will probably provoke future attacks. And to all you other macho pro-war Rambos - I say get on over there to Iraq and put your money where your mouth is. Why are you all hiding passively behind your keyboards? You are just a bunch of hunt-and-peckers doing nothing to defend our freedoms. Oh, I get it, you thought that the mission was already accomplished when Bush made his big phony proclamation. You cowards cowering behind your keyboards while supporting this war ought to be ashamed of yourselves. I'd guess that if you'd ever find yourselves in combat, you'd be as effective as Don Knotts was in the SHAKIEST GUN IN THE WEST!

wishyouweregone

Or Janiepoo it could be that we have already served our time in the military at another time. We did put our money where our mouth is. Some of us have faced bullets and done our part to protect you loud mouthed liberals since you won't do anything except whine about our methods. I guess you feel it should be a life-long commitment on our part to protect you so that you can continue to bash veterans?
I have no problem voicing my views, in my opinion they are correct. I don't know why anyone would not believe their views were (regardless of how wrong yours is). I am still trying to figure out however why anyone would think that absitenance for teens is "scary" though....that one still puzzles me. I will continue to fight for what is RIGHT against liberals who continue to do their best to drive this great country further into the depravity and financial ruin. And yes, no matter how you read the Bible, abortion IS still murder.
Hope everyone enjoys their freedoms and rights this weekend, and for the rest of your lives for that matter. If you do, please thank a veteran. If you have trouble finding one just look for the guys cowering behind their keyboards.......

Janiepoo:

I can’t tell if you can’t or won’t understand why we are in Iraq.

One of the reasons is the same reason a football team has an offense and a defense. If a team does nothing but play defense they will very rarely win a game.

The crazies can’t be here attacking us if we have them engaged in the Middle East.

There are several other reasons for us to be there, but one of things that convinced me that Iraq was involved in 911 is the fact that Mohamed Atta – the lead hijacker on 911 – met with an Iraqi intelligence officer in Prague, Czech Republic in April 2001 – five months before 911.
I’ve been to the Czech Republic several times (it was an Eastern Block country known as Czechoslovakia then). I know from experience that they would not go out of their way to make up a story to help us.

Again, this is just one of the reasons I believe Iraq was involved in 911. Do a little digging yourself so you don’t have to depend just on what you hear others say.

Sorry, boo, I didn't mean to impugn your gender by calling you a guy. My bad.

If you support the termination of unborn human life as an alternative to carrying the baby to term, then you are pro-abortion. It's that simple. You can hide behind the semantics of "choice" but it's still supporting abortion. Since you are incapable of describing how the blastocyst is not a human being you are condoning the destruction of a new human life.

A blastocyst has the same genetic material that he/she will have for the rest of their lives. Destroying that newly formed and unique human being in utero is the same as throwing a newly born baby into the trash bin. Don't get mad at me, boo, tell me where I am wrong. Use science as your argument and tell this good ol' white boy how you are smarter and more capable of deciding who lives and who dies.

wait, let me get this straight, the majority of christians want to turn a blind eye to science when it comes to evolution, but then want us to use their weird version of science when it comes to abortion. yes, blastocysts have the make-up TO BECOME a human. they arent automatically a human unless the mother carries the fetus. therefore...it is the mother's choice, or natures choice (miscarriage) to continue it to term.

if you make abortion illegal, do you know how many desperate women will get sick or die from backroom, illegal abortions? so, if your daughter doesn't think that she can come talk to you if she turns up pregnant, because you expected her to stay abstinant, do you want her in one of those back rooms?

Not sure where to start... firstly, a majority of Christians do not turn a blind eye to evolution. I think there is serious scientific evidence that evolution is true. I also believe that a Creator had a say in our development. Evolution is science and creationism is theological. I disagree with those that want to remove evolution from the science books. I think it's important to have a well-rounded education and that includes science and theology. Stop making stereotypical statements you can't back up.

Secondly, a blastocyst does not magically become a human being at some point in his/her development. That sounds close to creationism. You believe somehow the blastocyst/embyro BECOMES a human being when it's wanted by his/her mother and is a clump of cells to be discarded if he/she isn't wanted. How can there be such a disparate double-standard in your beliefs? When a majority of abortions occur, the mother is already carrying the baby in her womb. In your words, that fetus is now a "human" worthy of life. I'm glad you recognize that 90% of abortions are performed on viable human beings that otherwise would have been born healthy and pudgy. I just don't understand how you can support the destruction of that human life so arbitrarily?

Thirdly, I believe I will have brought up my daughters to respect themselves and their bodies enough to not get pregnant in the first place. If they do get pregnant, they will understand that they now have the responsiblity to bring up that baby or give him/her up for adoption. If, heaven forbid, they choose to have a back alley abortion and die as a result, then that will have been their CHOICE. I don't believe it's more important to protect those few hundred mothers who choose to end their baby's lives illegally over the millions of unborn babies that die each year because they are unwanted and unloved. The mother always has a choice, you want to remove the choice option for those human beings who cannot speak for themselves. I choose to speak for those unwanted and unloved babies you choose to kill.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you."
Jeremiah 1:5

Life begins at conception (the time when the spirit enters, the opposite of death).

I am sure if the unborn child were given a "choice" they would choose to live!

Some of you choose to say this is a "mother's choice"-I beg to differ, when it involves the 1) the child 2)the mother 3) the father 4) God

I agree Dr. Stevens, abortion IS the murder of an innocent.

So Boo, following your terms...are you saying that if a person becomes non-viable later on in life, they're no longer a human being either? If it is inconvenient to take care of them, they should be destroyed in some violent, horrific manner without thought to their pain and suffering during their "extermination"?

Lurch: I know why we are at war in Iraq. OIL - that is the REAL reason we are there.

Your football analogy was condescending and inaccurate. For your information the Chicago Bears won the superbowl on the strength of their defensive game. So did the Baltimore Ravens and others.

The people of this country were lied to and told we were going to invade Iraq because of WMD. We were told that there were nuclear weapons. There was NOTHING. Our own government created a phantom offense to trick us.

All of the other nonsense that you spouted has been debunked over and over again. Have you not read the bipartisan 9/11 commission report? You don't have to do too much digging to find the truth.

But I suspect that YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH.

RAX -

That's the fun about the "internets." You can hide behind a keyboard and pretend you're a 5-Star general. I'm not bashing veterans. I am bashing the idiots and chickenhawks and draft dodgers who vociferously support this war and send our soldiers there under false pretenses.

These are people like Dick Cheney, who recieved five draft notices during the Vietnam war and sought deferment to all of them claiming he had "more important business." Then there is George AWOL Bush. How about this fictional Vietnam War squad made up of Dan Quayle, Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh, Pat Buchanan, Phil Gramm, Clarence Thomas, George Will, Bill O'Reilly, William Kristol. All of these wimp warriors used family connections or college deferments to avoid serving in previous wars, yet are ardent supporters of the Iraq War.

These are the people that I am bashing. Not you, who apparently dodged bullets for our freedoms.

I think the Bears had a decent running back, some guy that's in Canton. The ravens had two very good RBs. I think the point was you can't win with defense alone. I guess we can add football to list list of things you don't know that much about.

Janiepoo:

What specifically has been debunked & show me where.

Posted by boombaladee on July 11, 2008 at 1:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
yeah, cause i see embryos down at the local tavern every saturday night...and moms rocking their newly formed blastocysts to sleep and singing them lullabyes...and as a matter of fact, one of my best friends is a clump of dividing cells.

when you grow a uterus, or want to adopt kids, pay their medical bills, help a single pregnant girl finish school and raise their baby, then you can have a voice in the matter, until then (be very quiet in an extreme manner).

Posted by familyguy on July 11, 2008 at 1:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Actually, boo, you do see embryos down at the local tavern, they've just grown up and are now called adults. It's all part of the growth cycle of the human being. And, my wife did sing lullabyes to our blastocyst as soon as she realized she was pregnant. Your best friend is always dividing cells as part of their normal growth cycle, just like a newly formed baby at conception. The only time the human body stops dividing cells is at death. You and your pro-abortion ilk want to provide that untimely death to that newly formed human being because you don't believe its worthy of life.

I like how you didn't try to explain how I am wrong in my assertions. You just want me to (be very quiet in an extreme manner). Very nice. Very progressive and liberal to try and shutdown free speech for those you don't agree with. Hey, janiepoo and ginger, here is the gal you keep fawning over telling me to (be very quiet in an extreme manner) because she doesn't agree with me. Does she still speak for you?

Come on janiepoo – put your supposed facts where your big mouth is. You’re a typical loud mouthed know nothing liberal that tries to slink away when someone challenges you to prove your stupid remarks.

"I wonder, do you shed tears for all of the innocent people in this country who get killed everyday in drive-by's, muurders, drug deals gone awry, etc.? "

If these parents would have aborted these children when they should have then we wouldn't have had to shed tears for the people that they are killing.

Oh Lurch, give me a break. Just get out your handy bipartisan 9/11 commission report like I told you before and read for yourself about how your wild & crazy ideas have all been debunked. It's right in there. Just take off your tin-foil hat and read it. Read the truth. Do I have to hold your hand and turn the pages for you? You just sit there at your keyboard just tap, tap, tap, tapping away. I guess that's easier on your ears than mortar fire.

To Mr. America: Oh "Sweetness" you don't go on the offense when you're taking on the wrong opponent do you? I think any decent football coach would say that it doesn't matter how good your offense is if you're not running the right plays.

Poohead (I can do it too):

I was hoping you would site the 911 Commission report. Did you stop reading after you read what you wanted to hear or see? Do I need to turn the pages for you?
In the report’s conclusion they said that there was no way to tell for sure whether or not Atta met with the Iraqi intelligence officer in Prague – only that if he did – it wasn’t under his real identity.

Now what are the chances of a crazed murderer doing something so dastardly as traveling under an assumed name?

You said “read for yourself about how your wild & crazy ideas have all been debunked”. Atta was the only thing I wrote about in that post. What other ideas are you blathering about, and where have they been debunked?

Poohead:

Give up on the football analogies – you just make a bigger fool of yourself every time to try to wiggle out of your original ignorant remark.

somebody get me some hip waders...i'm going to drown in all of this christian kindness and charity. bottom line is i will continue to support womens reproductive rights, and vote accordingly. Most of the people I know do as well. The christian right is losing its power, and more people are waking up and thinking for themselves.

And that is why this country is in the mess it is in right now. NO VALUES Just self serving!!!

I knew you could not face the truth, boo. You now know you are condoning the destruction of unborn human life and you CHOOSE to ignore it and tow the party line. You have no argument to counter what I have stated and yet you still want to destroy millions of innocent human beings in utero each year in the name of "reproductive rights".

I notice you keep thinking that the pro-life movement is a Christian movement, but I have not brought up one religious explanation for why abortion is bad. I simply pointed out that abortion is the willful destruction of a unique, genetically-realized human being that has the inherent right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. You can CHOOSE to ignore that fact, but it's based on sound scientific evidence and not religious quackery.

You keep erroneously believing your side is winning, boo. I know it helps you sleep at night. Pay no attention to the screams of the unborn babies you support rendering limb from limb in the sacred name of "choice".

ha!! screams of unborn babies....such colorful wording. you make me laugh.

How you find that funny I'll never understand. I believe it shows your maturity level and your unwillingness to accecpt the facts of the matter.

actually, the fact is, in order to scream, you have to expell air, which unborn babies don't have ready access to.

and you want to cherry pick, so, aint' we both content?

Boo, at least you now call them unborn babies instead of embryos. That's a good start. You're finally starting to recognize the inherent humanity of the unborn.

You are correct that unborn babies cannot scream because air does not flow across their vocal cords yet. I'm sure the kicking and flailing that accompanies the rendering of their limbs or burning of their skin with salt water during an abortion is simply an involuntary reaction to the horrific pain they are feeling, right? I'm sure if you performed the same "reproductive rights" treatment on a newborn, they would scream like crazy. Does it make you feel better that unborn babies cannot scream to show pain?

boo- your posts are so far out there, its unbelievable. I am sitting here blinking in disbelief at what you are spewing...(yep those babies in utero can blink too!) You know, I would like to see you tell a mother who just experienced a miscarriage at 12 weeks gestation, whose formed baby was moving, still alive with a beating heart, until the umbilical cord was cut, that it was nothing but a mass ball of cells! You can't explain how when an abortion (ripping apart of the limbs and body, that although a baby doesn't technically "scream" they wince...they feel the pain of their murder...they scream but without voice. The fact that you are so callous to this, finding it funny, speaks volumes. So we differ in our beliefs...its your God-given right, but that doesn't make you right.

it doesn't make you right either...
that's the whole reason women have a CHOICE. so they can make up their own minds.

the only reason i bring up all the bible things are because most of the time the anti-abortion crowd cites the bible as their reasoning, but all they can come up with is the whole "i knew you" thing, which could mean a lot of things. the verses i cited are alot more clear, and if you really followed your bible like alot of you claim to do, you'd own all the parts you don't like either instead of saying..."oh, that's OLD testament, that doesn't apply to us now"

Don't be too hard on boo, suzy. She's just spewing what she's been taught over the years. To my utter shame, I used to think like her. I was a radical pro-choicer who believed the religious-right was forcing their beliefs down my throat. I fought mercilessly against falling into their trap and becoming brain-washed into believing embryos and feti were really people. It wasn't until I got married and started thinking of having my own children that I was able to see past my selfishness and realize that if I could not imagine aborting my own children, how could I allow others to callously abort theirs? That was my wake up call and I've been pro-life ever since. Boo knows the truth, she just can't allow herself to believe that her support of "women's rights" kills millions of babies each year. It's a very humbling concept to grasp if you're not ready.

Boombaladee:

I will join you in continuing to support women's reproductive rights and I too will vote accordingly. If we wanted to live in a country where religious fanatics ruled, we'd move to the Middle East. We've got to fight to get the Christian right out of our politics or we WILL turn into a religious extremist country like those in the Middle East.

Yeah, janie, because the arguments presented on this comments area against have been chock full of religious buffoonery and right-wing-nut shenanigans. sheesh!

I have provided a cogent argument for why abortion is the willful destruction of innocent, unborn human life. No one on your side has presented a counter-argument. You just keep repeating the mantra of "PRO-CHOICE! PRO-CHOICE! STOP THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT!" Don't you have a thought of your own? Don't you have a clear and concise argument for how the blastocyst/embyro/fetus is not a human being and worthy of life? If you don't have any compelling arguments for supporting abortion-on-demand, how can you possibly argue it as an alternative to protecting life?

Stop hiding behind the facade of "religion is the only reason people are against abortion" and tell me how I am wrong in my scientifically evidenced pro-life assertions. Please enthrall me with your acumen. I'm sure Dr. Stevens would like to know that the babies he sees on the ultrasound are somehow not human beings.

Boo- I do believe women have a choice...they can choose when to have sex, they can choose whether or not they use protection, they CAN choose to accept the risk of getting pregnant all beforehand.

And as for the bible versus you quote, some of those very same versus can be used to the contrary of the way you interpret. I can put out several more here to "side" with me. But in the end, we will find out what is right. If I am right, I will not have to explain why I supported murdering of innocent babies, but you will. If you are right, then no harm done...we were just a bunch of ball of cell masses that just believed differently. And actually, taking our religous beliefs away from it, I guess I just can't understand how someone could think that its okay to murder little unborns just because they didn't think and take responsibility for their actions. By aborting, they are interfering with life...how can that not be murder?

Like family guy said, this is one that even the leaders of our country can't agree on, so I guess I can't expect to change any minds myself. I respect that you have a right to believe the way you want. I can't imagine my life without any one of my six children, I can't imagine being the mother who made the choice to abort and have to wonder the rest of their life what that child would have been like. I personally have had friends that made that choice and the ones I know lived to regret it later on. My feeling is that there is always adoption, etc.

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/abortion/tp/abortionmyths.htm

Interesting link, boo. I will address #10: Human life actually begins prior to conception, because each sperm and egg cell is a living thing. It is more relevant to discuss when sentience, or self-awareness, begins. In 2000, the British House of Lords established a Commission of Inquiry into Fetal Sentience, which estimated that higher-level brain development begins to commence at about 23 weeks.

My rebuttal: An egg and a sperm are not a unique individual. They are merely part of a larger human being based on their gender. The egg has half of the DNA that a human being needs to begin life. The sperm adds the other half. Once the sperm and egg meet and add each others DNA to create a new and unique human being, life begins. That is basic biology. Please tell me how I am wrong or admit I am correct?

Life is not dependent upon self-awareness. If that were the case, newborns up to about 8 months would not be worthy of life in your point of view. Even toddlers would be incapable of supporting themselves and would slowly die of starvation if left unattended. Babies have no idea that they are a separate human being. They entrust those around them to fulfill their needs and nurture them. That is what human evolution has taught them. "Life" is imbued upon us at conception when all aspects of our future growth are laid out and begin to form via cell division. Any attempt to de-humanize the unborn by introducing "self-awareness" to the basic growth and development of a human being is an attempt thwart our human nature. "Life" is not self-awareness, it's the perpetuation of the union of an egg and sperm that forms into a new human being.

Abortion therefore is the termination of life of millions of human beings in utero each year. I read your link, now you can read mine: http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5208 Enjoy!

so, family guy....do you eat meat or wear leather? why are all the millions of animals slaughtered each year for our plates' lives less important than a fetus? if you are PROLIFE, why don't you put your money where your mouth is.

also...just like a sperm or an egg, an embryo only has SOME of the parts that make it human.

ps...the whole "soul" argument doesn't work if you don't believe in souls.

You want to compare human beings to animals? It's funny how you seem to want to protect the slaughter of animals, but support the wholesale slaughter of unborn babies. Is that what you are trying to say? This argument doesn't make any sense. I am pro-life because I want to protect the lives of those people who cannot speak for themselves or defend themselves. I can't find any valid reason to equate the life of a human being to that of an animal. If you can't make that distinction, then there is something seriously out-of-whack with your belief system.

i never said i wanted to protect animals...i'm simply asking why you believe human lives are more important than animals? if you're pro life, you should be pro ALL life, no? animals cannot speak for themselves...and its proven that an animal can feel pain, yet its not been proven that a fetus can.

I have never eaten a human baby or worn any thing made from baby leather. I do have a baby hair sweater(no babies were harmed in the making of the sweater.

An egg or sperm cannot generate into a new life unless they are united. Do you not get that concept or did you miss school the day they taught basic sex-ed in grade school? A blastocyst has everything it needs to grow over time into an old man or woman. Nothing new is added to the newly conceived human being once the sperm and egg unite. Everything that new person needs is taken care of at a genetic level until death. These are not difficult concepts to grasp. I'm not making this up. This is Biology 101.

Since when have they (Pro Choice crowd) relyed on or taken facts into account. They only want to hear what fits nicely into their agenda.

but it needs the womb to survive. It is unconstitutional to force a woman to bear a pregnancy that she doesn't want or cannot. period.
when a sperm and an egg are united in a petri dish, but not all of the resulting fertilized eggs are used, do you cry outrage at fertility clinics? why don't you protest them?

PS... having a soul is not a religious issue. Even when I was radically agnostic/atheist I believed I had a soul. I just didn't believe "god" gave it to me. A soul is what distinguishes us human beings from the animals. We are set apart from them and therefore we can eat them as sustenance.

I like the idea that you are finally beginning to understand that forcing pain on any animal whether it be unborn human beings or helpless cattle is something that should be considered. Since you seem to be trying to equate fetal pain to animal pain, I have to assume that you now recognize the unborn human as an entity worthy of protection from having pain inflicted upon it. I tell you what, if I become a vegetarian will you promise me to protect feti from being torn apart or burned out of the womb? I'll protect the cows if you begin protecting the babies. Is that a deal?

can you read? obviously not, because you are completely twisting everything i've said.
who says animals don't have souls then? just wondering. i believe that there are better explanations for our personalities that "souls"...
WE ARE ANIMALS...

and you know what happens when you ASSume.

I don't remember evolution asking whether or not the female of the species wanted to carry the babies or not. Your gender was CHOSEN by nature to perpetuate the species in union with the males. I cannot help that unborn babies that are unwanted are cursed to be in women who did not want them. That does not give the woman the right to choose to terminate that life because "it's not fair". Luckily, nature chose to only allow a pregnancy to occur if an egg and sperm was introduced to each other. Women would not be "punished with a baby" (in Obama's words) if they prevented the egg and sperm from meeting in the first place.

Yes, I cry outrage at fertility clinics. They arbitrarily create and dispose of life on a whim. I don't blame the expectant mothers and fathers for needing help to conceive, but I blame the medical community for not creating a better and less destructive way to allow women to conceive with IVF.

Boom - you just need to stop, now. Please comparing a cow to a human being is totally zapping what credibility you may have with some. I would like for you to go back and look at njones post where she talks about a few of her friends that chose to abort and have never forgotten. I also know several women who made that choice and not one has ever forgiven herself for what she did so many years ago. 1 committed suicide a few years later and mentioned how sorry she was in the letter she left behind. Several are on anti depression meds and bring up the pain they feel every anniversary of the day the procedure was done, as well as the date their sack of cells would have been born. Please don't try to trivialize life, or choices that are made just to make yourself feel better or to justify your beliefs. Your believe what you believe and I believe what I believe. You will not change anyones mind on this forum just no one will change yours.

I may be part of the mammalian species, but I am not on the same playing field as cows and pigs. Nature chose us to be smarter, more creative, more imaginative and more compassionate than most of the animal species. We won the evolutionary lottery. We are just a speck in the evolutionary ladder. But, in the short time we have been around, humankind has done some extraordinary things. We have also done some almighty horrible things. If we were just animals, we would not be having this conversation. In the animal kingdom, the only thing that the species is concerned with is living and perpetuating the species. The females always try and be pregnant to ensure that their species survives. Don't you find it horrifying that humankind is the only animal in the kingdom that specifically targets its young for termination in utero by stating its their constitutional right to do so? That is in direct contradiction to the law of nature.

rush620...one in three american women have had abortions. I've had one. I also have to wonderful children. I have never felt a twinge of guilt, sadness, or had the urge to end it all. you are perpetuating a myth that all women are depressed after abortions. and that's untruthful and irresponsible. I have plenty of friends that have had them with none of this depression or regret that you speak of.

AND FAMILY GUY...you don't blame the parents? but they are the ones paying the fertility clinics. also, if men were the ones who had to carry a pregnancy to term, abortions would be easier to get than food poisoning in moscow.

i'm just confused. you don't want abortions, but you refuse to let proper sex education be taught in schools. you cannot have it both ways.

Just for the record, I am not trying to change anyones mind. I am trying to open a dialogue so people can make up their own minds. Too many people want to live and let live and allow the pro-choicers to perpetuate myths and make erroneous accusations without calling them on their ignorance. It's good that boo equated humans to animals. It's important for people to understand that mentality because many in the pro-abortion world believe that the unborn are not really humans therefore they can be destroyed without any reservations. Those of us who believe otherwise have a responsibility to call those people out and force them to explain their actions.

I don't do this out of malice or hate, I do it so people will break out of their complacency and stop the needless slaughter of the unborn.

First off, I don't believe that 1:3 American women have had willful elective abortions. Second, now I understand why you have the need to protect your philosophy. I'm so sorry.

the only thing i want to protect is that the laws stay the same and protect my daughter's reproductive rights, so they can have control of their own destiny.

Familyguy - For what it's worth, you are slowly winning me over with your logical arguments. Though I believe abortion is more of a moral /ethical issue than a governmental issue, passions have always been incredibly strong on both sides. As I stated in another post, I shudder to think of my almost 7-year-old boy being vaccuumed out of my wife. I am now beginning to think about the potential life that any blastocyst may become. (I say potential becuase it is never for sure a full-term birth would happen, due to trauma, illness, other factors, etc.). I admire and respect your nonwavering stance.

I'm glad you chose to bring new life into the world, boo. They are truly a blessing.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

Destiny? So lets just forget about the baby's "destiny?" Oh give me a break! It's to protect the irresponsible selfish behavior and the failure to take responsibility. Abortion is an irresponsible, immoral form of birth control (regardless of one's religous beliefs). If you want your daughter to have a choice, teach her how to prevent it!

...and do I dare ask about a Father's reproductive rights?

gladimgone, I appreciate that feedback. I'm always willing to listen to arguments about this topic. It has taken me years to reach the point where I am now. I believe my background as a former pro-abortionist helps me understand why people choose what they choose to believe. I totally understand where boo, janie and ginger are coming from. I just vehemently disagree with them now. Since this topic is so incendiary, I always make sure I back my discussion up with logic, science and a willingness to listen to the other side. Emotions can sometimes cloud over the topic and that's when things go downhill fast.

i plan on teaching her how to prevent it, but i'd like for her to have the option if there's an accident or violence against her.

If abortions were only allowed for rape or incest, we would cut the abortion rate by 98%. There is no "accidental" pregnancy, boo. It may be unintended, but it's not accidental. Unintended pregnancy is still not a good enough reason to abort. If you intend to have intercourse, then there is a chance that you may become pregnant. Responsibility for ones actions is what we should be teaching our daughters. They have the power to prevent "accidents" from occuring. If they choose not to use that power, then they should live with the consequences.

Boo you sound like you have a support group for you, all your friends having abortions too; but I cannot help but wonder if down deep when you look at your live children don't you ever wonder what the baby you killed would be and IF heaven forbid anything ever happens to one of your live kids will you disregard them in the same hartless manner?

of course i don't, that's just stupid

unintended=accidental=surprise...whatever. the point is if its unintended, and she choses not to have a baby, then that's her choice. not yours.

Fair enough. I only hope and pray when she is forced to make that decision, she chooses life over death. I really want you to see your beautiful grandbaby.

I really feel sorry for you!!

and i you asmaggie

So, let's discuss Mayor Shearin's letter now. Shall we? : )

Don't feel sorry for me. I had my kids and my kids had my grandkids and they were not all planned but I recieve so much love I could not think of not wanting any one of them. But I see as long as you keep telling yourself that was not a live baby then I guess you can live with yourself!! But I really think you are a lier and I think you do sometimes wonder what that baby would have been like!!!

actually, i don't. but if you have to tell yourself that to feel better, it's okay with me. i give it no more thought than i if i had my appendix out or wisdom teeth.

*shudders*

Lurch:

Please read what you just typed - you said that the report was inconclusive. So you think that we should go on the rampage and kill thousands of our soldiers and perhaps hundreds of thousands of civilian Iraqis based on that one little snippet of fantasy "what if?" You really think this tiny bit of wishful thinking nesessitated the Iraq travesty?

You started the football analogy you dunderhead. But I was able to make some good points because a good defense can win. In 1985 the Bears had the ultimate defense and they won the Super Bowl that year. Walter Payton did not even score a touchdown.

Lurch you are so arrogant and such a know-it-all. I can't stomach you anymore. A reformed anything is such a pain in the rump.

Come November I hope someone will stuff a sock in your mouth to stop the hot air buffoon.

Janie, what does this have to do with Mayor Shearin's letter?

poohead:

Do you not have the IQ to string more than one thought or sentence together?

Go back and read my original post on this topic. I said “There are several other reasons for us to be there, but one of things that convinced me that Iraq was involved in 911 is “
Can you see the “one of the things”, or is this another case of you seeing or hearing just what you want to?

On the football subject I said “One of the reasons is the same reason a football team has an offense and a defense. If a team does nothing but play defense they will very rarely win a game.”
Again, you saw only what you wanted to. I did not say they will never win a game.

You make my point for me every time you type something. It’s like you don’t have the mental capacity to think things through for yourself by putting thoughts together to come to a logical conclusion about anything.

You said “Your football analogy was condescending and inaccurate.” Evidently you warrant condescension.

Sorry folks, I have to get involved here. I've been reading some of these ridiculous comments by gingersnapp and janiepoo & some others. It's like they share the same brain.
They make no sense at all.

leads:

If you mean that each only has half a brain - I think I could agree with you.

Wow Boo, I hope your kids never realize you thought of them as expendable body parts. I mean really the comparison you gave there is incredible. I can't wait to see what my wisdom tooth and appendix grow up to be! Heck they may be the next president of the Unites States. If you truly gave it no more thought than what you said, I truly feel sorry for you.

SuzyQ if you ever get your wisdom (and you have MUCH wisdom) tooth and appendix grown up, you can put football helmets and shoulder pads on them and they can be really strong defensive linemen and maybe someday win a Super Bowl. (By the way, I'm pretty sure Mr. Payton's offensive finesse may have had a small something to do with Da Bears getting to the Bowl).

gladimgone- you never know, my Dad had a pretty promising football career before he joined the military, so it is definitely in the blood. VIP seats to you if it that happens! LOL

Ya know Boo, the more I thought about this, I just want to say, even though I vehemently disagree with you (or prochoice)when it comes to this subject, I will refrain from judging you. Might continue talking about the subject, yes, but specifics about your situation, no. Long ago, I had a friend decide upon having an abortion, I did try and talk her out of it to no avail, we disagreed...but she is still my friend.

dalearch:

I didn't actually mean it quite like that, but now that you mention it.... :)

SuzyQ, love the sinner, hate the sin. That's a good decision you made. I also have good friends who are pro-choice and have had abortions. I don't hate people for having abortions or supporting them. I'm heartbroken they felt that abortion was their only option. It makes me weep that millions of babies each year are killed so callously and without any remorse.

I know some people on this comment board believe the unborn are clumps of cells or useless parasites that deserve to be sucked out of the womb if they are unwanted, but I can't condone those actions. Whenever a group of people are dehumanized they become disposable and useless. Humankind tends to categorize people that way as recent history proves with the Holocaust victims, slaves, homeless, mentally ill, elderly, unborn, etc. As soon as people lose their inherent humanity they become a burden and are forgotten. That allows some people to take advantage of them or terminate them without remorse. I believe our country should be more compassionate and not allow this to happen.

suzyQ - boo is the same one that thinks it's great that the 17 young girls on the east coast made their "pregnancy pact" and that we should all get behind them and support them!! Woo hoo!

i love how some people here find it necessary to misconstrue your words to make you sound like a monster. I never said that it was "great" and i dare you to find where i said that. I do believe i said not to crucify them.

‘The more you judge, the less you love.’

— Honoré de Balzac

LOL

Now who's sarcasm-meter is broken?

You know, there are so many unloved, unwanted kids in this world, it makes you wonder.

A huge number of these kids are never loved, ever.

So many that end up being nothing but criminals, welfare cases, a burden on anyone and everyone -

Those that hurt and harm and mame and kill, the prisons are full of them as are our streets -

Maybe sterilization right from the get go......

It's a no win situation, forced sterilization or mandantory birth control might not be that far fetched an idea.....

Lurch:

Pssssssssssssssssssssttttt . . . . the sound of hot air seeping out of a baffoon.

StJoeMoe:

You are so right. Where is the love after the fetus is born? There is so much hate for one another after we are born. I wonder if forced sterilization or mandatory birth control might not be such a bad idea.

poohead:

I guess I shouldn’t expect someone of your caliber to admit when they’re wrong.

poohead:

It’s a shame your parents didn’t believe in forced sterilization or mandatory birth control.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. You left yourself wide open on that one.

There is major difference between pro-lifers and pro-choicers. We've just read it on this thread. Pro-lifers believe all human beings have a right to life and should be allowed to prosper without the fear of arbitrary termination. We believe the world is basically a good place and, given time, all people can pull themselves from the muck and become productive citizens. Pro-choicers believe the world is a dark, scary place where those people who are unloved or unwanted should never be allowed to survive. They believe it would be better for those children that are born to horrible parents to be killed in utero than to be subjugated to a "life" of misery and hatred.

I believe it's more important to allow those unwanted babies to be born and make their own decisions about their destiny. I believe they have earned the right as a member of the human race to determine how their life will turn out. We have no right to CHOOSE that they die simply because some people have a distorted viewpoint of how horrible the world is. Forced sterilization may seem like a pipe dream to some people. I see it as the next step in the pro-choice arsenal. That was what Margaret Sanger wanted when she started Planned Parenthood. Forced sterilization for the blacks in the ghettos. It's ironic that the pro-choicers will eventually sterilize themselves out of existence since the pro-lifers seem to be the only ones having the most children.

i find it ironic that family guy accuses pro-choicers of wanting to "arbitrarily terminate" human life....aren't anti-choicers usually republicans who support the war thats currently killing thousands of fully developed and concious humans, and he probably eats veal, but that's okay, cause animals don't have souls and can't feel pain, right?

So, boo, you are equating the people who are dying in Iraq with the unborn? That's a good comparison. They are both groups of people worthy of life. I'm saddened by all their deaths. The difference between us is that you seem to glorify the deaths of the unborn.

I think you've grown quite a bit during this discussion. Based on this last comment you recognize that the unborn are persons who should be protected, just like the innocent citizens in Iraq. You recognize that mature adults are fully-developed and conscious human beings, which means babies and the unborn are simply under-developed, less self-conscious adults. You may not be aware that you saying these things, but they are inferred in your comments. Unborn babies are being killed in utero just like adults are being killed in Iraq and they are both travesties. Welcome to the pro-life mindframe.

BTW, I don't eat veal. It's too expensive. I love a good steak though... medium rare... mmmmmm... oh, and bacon! YUM!

i only make that comparison to show you what a hypocrite you are. if you say life in the womb is precious, why don't you hold ALL life precious. (and i really could care less if you eat meat, i'm just using it to illustrate a point. I love bacon too.)

I hold all HUMAN life precious. Livestock are not even close to the same level as human beings. I find it hypocritical that you would hold the life of a lamb as sacred but equate the killing of an unborn human to pulling a wisdom tooth or having an appendectomy.

The thick cut bacon at Cracker Barrel is some of the best in town. Dang, now I want a BLT.

Leave SuzyQ's wisdom tooth and appendix out of this!!!
mmmmmmmmmmm, bacon.....

what makes human life better than animal life?

Boo, you REALLY don't see a difference between animals and humans or are you being purposely obtuse? If you hold yourself, your children, friends and family in such low regard then you have bigger issues than we can handle on this comment area.

If it makes you feel any better, I think your life and the lives of your children are much more important than a pig. If I saw you or your loved ones being slaughtered alongside a cow, I would definitely save you and yours over the bovine. You're welcome. : )

i'm after the reason...but if you can't give one, that's ok

You're trying to pull me into a religious discussion about the sanctity of the human soul and how it correlates to our connection to God's image. But, I know you aren't ready to hear any of those things. That's why I've stayed away from religion on this topic.

Of course, there are many reasons that I believe human life is superior to animal life. First, I am human so I am evolutionarily pre-disposed to perpetuate our species. Second, my human instinct is to protect my own kind, so if I came upon a house on fire and I had to choose between saving the family cat or the newborn baby wailing in the bedroom, I'm going to darn near kill myself trying to save that baby (wouldn't you do the same for your child?). The dead cat would be missed, but the dead baby would be lamented. Third, human beings are the pinnacle of evolution up to this point. Our brains are so far advanced from any other species that I believe we were designed by nature to become something special. I believe each human being has a special connection to a higher power (whether that be Yahweh, Gaia, Ganesha, other) and we have the duty and privilege to sustain ourselves until we fulfill our destiny. How far have cows and pigs advanced over the last 50,000 years?

Does that answer your question or do you need more?

I have a question for you. Is a blastocyst in a woman a human being? If it's not human, what is it? Keep in mind the definition of an abortion is to terminate a pregnancy. A pregnancy is defined as a woman who has a developing unborn human baby (fetus, embryo) within her body. Therefore, terminating a pregnancy is the killing of an unborn human being in utero. I did not make that up, those are the facts based on established definitions of terms.

It is typical human arrogance to think we are more important than every other organism simply because we are more evolved. Bacteria have been around just as long as we have; we’ve simply evolved in a different way. We created importance, and we are always looking to establish a hierarchy of things. But we must remember that importance is relative. Bacteria have been around just as long as we have; we’ve simply evolved in a different way.

i would say that a blastocyst while, having all the "ingredients" to become a human, is not quite there. All kinds of things can happen from where you claim "life begins" to the birth. nature, drug abuse, stress, abnormalities, all can cause miscarriages. and if the woman does not want, cannot bear, physically, mentally, or financially to continue the pregnancy, she should not be forced to. simple as that. it is her choice, and it should remain her choice. a lot of times, it has more to do with survival of the mother and the rest of her family than you might think. but all you're worried about is the blastocyst. priorities?

So, in your viewpoint, your children are as inconsequential as a bacteria? Do you really hold yourself and your family to such a low standard? Do you not have any dignity at all? I'm actually shocked that you hold humanity in such low regard. That must taint your day to day life as you deal with people who you find as useless as bacterium. I'm sure you're a hoot to be around.

What "ingredient" is added to the blastocyst that makes it become a human being? There is nothing physically added to the blastocyst from conception. There is no outside genetic material that forces its way into the blastocyst at 22 weeks that magically transforms it into a baby. Nature and outside influences (including cannula's and curette's) can stop the babies development, but it still does not mean the baby is not human. You wield "CHOICE" like a magic sword that takes away the humanity of the unborn to make it palatable to kill it for arbitrary reasons. If the baby is unwanted for any reason, kill it. If it's wanted, then *POOF* it's a baby and should be born. The mental gymnastics that you must go through to sustain your illusion that unborn embryos aren't human beings must be exhausting. No wonder you've set the bar so low in your viewpoint of the uniqueness of humanity. You have no pride in your species. That's the pro-abortion mentality.

"We must have strong minds, ready to accept facts as they are."

Harry S Truman

why should i have pride in my species, when they value a blastocyst over a WOMAN, or money over peace, or torture over convenience? why should i believe that we are superior to any other species?
One can argue that humans enslave, torture, kill, while no other species on earth can not even come close to exhibiting such a level of barbarism. Every criterion that humans cite as evidence of their superiority can be examined to not only negate the claim--but demonstrate the OPPOSITE with greater success. Altruism, tool making, parental nurturing...these qualities once thought to be exclusively human have been observed in wildlife.
Then there is the issue that humans are worth more according to some natural law. The ludicrousness of this belief can be easily exposed by simple observation. If a volcano erupts--does the lava flow destroy all in its path--but conveniently spare human life since it is a universal fact that they are special and not to be harmed? If a human is adrift in the ocean, and approached by a shark--do the jaws of the predatory fish lock up in paralyses when it attempts to bite the man? If the claim that "human life is superior to other life forms" was an absolute, universal fact and truth in nature--then how does one explain that humans appear to be subject to the same violence and mortality that applies to other life? One can't, because humans are not superior according to any criteria that are cited to prove it--all examples are arbitrary, subjective and non-absolute.

You are correct, humanity has its barbaric side. We also have a compassionate, imaginative, creative, highly-intellectual, philosophical, spiritual, rational, logical and humorous side. How many other species do you see who use medicines, tools and rationalization to destroy their unborn due to lack of finances or fear of commitment? Humankind is the only animal barbaric enough to destroy their own children in utero by choice. Way to go pro-choicers!

Humans are not set aside by nature as sacred and untouchable. We're nothing but meat-puppets in nature's world. It's how we view ourselves and how we treat each other that determines our worthiness as a species. That's why the pro-abortion viewpoint is so contrary to human nature. It's human nature to protect our young and nurture them. It's bred into our genetic makeup to ensure the survival of our young. I'm sure you didn't pop out your children and turn them loose in the streets to fend for themselves. If you could somehow get past this barrier of finding UNBORN humankind as inferior you could see how distorted your worldview has become.

You are so concerned with violating the "rights" of the mature female of our species that you have forgotten that half of the blastocysts that you destroy are female and should have the right to choose their own destiny. Why do you want to deny those unborn females the right to choose? I guess it's ok to flush the males down the drain. They're useless anyway.

THERE IS NONE SO BLIND AS THOSE WHO WILL NOT SEE!!!

pretty much.

fin.

Amen, azmaggie. Denial is not just a river in Egypt. Quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand. It makes me sad.

"why should i have pride in my species, when they value a blastocyst over a WOMAN, or money over peace, or torture over convenience?"

Excuse me? I don't recall anyone asking to terminate a Mother's life for that of a baby...fetus...embryo...blastocyst, "clump of cells"! Speaking of torture over convenience, or should we rephrase that "torture for convenience"?

Speaking about pride...sigh!

And you are doing what to make it better? Oh Yes, Killing the unborn!!!

pro-choice, and outraged at the comments about women who made the choice to abort being haunted for the rest of their lives over that decision. every case is different and every person has individual results. the whole point is that it is NOT for you to judge.

WOW, what stimulating conversations we are having here. Let's get down to basics. Talk to an OB-GYN. The truth will set you free! They will tell you about the unborn, non-living creatures moving their limbs, eyes, bodies when they look at them through ultrasound. Sound not alive to you? Maybe we should make the mother proof that she is a card carrying liberal before okaying her to abort her living being within her. At some point, if enough carry through on their "valuable" view points, we may eliminate a whole society of the ignorance that they spew upon life- loving human beings.

I have read through all of the comments about the letter from Dr. Stevens, and offer this observation and a suggestion:

One, it's still a matter of both the pro-life and the pro-choice crowds shouting, no one offering a single bit of new information. You simply are rehashing old thoughts and offering nothing new. I suspect no one's position has been changed by this Tower of Babel exchange.

Two, an observation: Rather than feeding your ego by seeing your worn-out comments on the screen, why don't you spend an equivalent amount of time in a more productive manner, i.e., volunteering at the Food Kitchen, delivering Meals on Wheels, or doing something else to help others? It would be a much better use of your time, even though it might mean less feeding of your ego.

Well said gr8fan and family guy!

...and Heritage, I just wanted to point out that I stated that I was going to refrain from discussing boo's individual decision, even though she was the one who put it out there; however, I do feel some sense of responsibility to try and protect the slaughter of our innocent babies. I see an equal amount of prochoicers doing the same about prolife. Why is it if we are prolife, we are automatically war mongers responsible for all the other ill's going on in the world? We must be right-wingers, etc. For what it's worth, I hate war, I hate loss of life, I am not republican nor democrat...but I tell you one thing, I am sure glad my Mom had me!

Just because the mother (or father)doesn't want to be bothered with a pregnancy and baby, doesn't justify killing. Give it up to another couple who desires a child and can't have one of their own! Let it live. Who are any one of us to say it is our right to terminate a life? If someone doesn't want to accept the risk of becoming pregnant, do something beforehand...or don't do it all.

Falcon, if you had actually read the comments like you said then you would realize that many of us never "shouted" about anything. Although the pro-choicer did tell me to (be very quiet in an extreme manner} when she didn't agree with me.

The pro-lifers presented facts about the humanity of the unborn and those facts could not be empirically denied by the pro-choicers. I believe I did bring up new arguments to the pro-choicers here because they only think of abortion as a religious issue. I have proven that it is not.

What makes you think I don't do the things that you believe we should be doing for the community? Who's REALLY feeding their ego on this comments area?

Maybe our intent, Falcon, is the hope that we may make one person see the light of a different view point. I don't see ego feeding here. I would go to the ego feeding store for that. Fly away Falcon!

this is a topic that will never be resolved between people, it is very emotional. and no one should be looked down on for what they believe in. i for one don't agree with abortion except in cases of incest or rape, or life threatening, however in each case the mother's wishes should be respected. and i strenuously disagree with partial birth abortions.

I appreciate what you said, deb, but it sounds like you believe some unborn babies should be protected and others should not. I'm not sure how you can make that distinction? Either the unborn are worthy of life or they are not. The rape baby is not imbued with the evil that his/her father may have had. The child should not be punished for the sins of the father. The mother should not be allowed to arbitrarily choose between life or death of her children. A mother should protect her offspring in many cases with her own life. Financial burden or lack of commitment should not be a valid reason to choose abortion. And that is why more than 4,000 babies are aborted each day in the U.S.

I try hard not look down on the pro-choicers. As I stated before, I used to be one. I just wanted to present facts here and see if anyone could have a reasonable doubt that abortion snuffs the life of an unborn human being. Sometimes the abortion issue is hijacked by the religious or the rabid pro-aborts. It's important to talk about what truly occurs during an abortion. If people cannot, or will not, recognize the inherent humanity of the unborn, then they are doomed to start seeing other sections of humanity as unwanted and unneeded. It's a very slippery slope and one that I am trying hard to prevent.

I am pro-choice. I think abortion should be safe and legal for all women. I do not want our governmanet sticking their noses into our private business. Isn't that what Republicans want, limited government intrusion in our lives. If aboration were to become legal, you can rest assured that the wealthy and the Republicans will pull strings to get their daughters safe abortions. The poor women will be the unlucky victims of the back-alley coat-hanger abortions. It is my understanding the Laura Bush is pro-choice. I almost think that Barbara Bush is pro-choice too. I will have to look that up, but I know at one time Laura was pro-choice.

Wow, I just want to say family guy, you did a wonderful job in keeping religion out of the debate and stuck to scientific facts (respectfully I might add), much better than I. I freely admit my religious beliefs do have a role in how I feel. However, I am amazed of all the political rhetoric that others have turned this into.

janiepoo, do you believe the blastocyst is a human being? If not, why not and what exactly is it?

Reminder: A human being is more than "self-awareness" or "cognizance" or "potential". Those are important parts of human development, but not what distinguishes us as human beings (homo sapiens).