Yea it looks as if that asset is going to have to be used here in the future because the way they operate toward the public it is about all they are going to get along with the 3.04 they recieve from the current operating levy.It is going to be a hard sell to the community to pass this levy and anything in the near future till they learn what open and upfront and honesty mesan to the public.And yes the ones who will suffer will not be them they will still make sure they recieve their 100,000 plus salaries while the teachers and students will be the ones who suffer.

MM1967, here is a link for ya.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEpRBI-VxLc

It's time to get a life, bud. ;)

Anyone who views a large reserve as a problem or indicative of mismanagement is an idiot and the thought process alone explains why we are in the economic mess we are in.

No one wants to save and everyone thinks everyone should live hand to mouth.

If we were talking about children complaining about the reserves, then no problem, they just need educated. However for an adult to view this reserve as poor management only proves ignorance on all things financial, further proving my opinion that those people are part of the problem we have today.

Knock yourselves out, fools. I'll never send my kids to government-run school and this exactly one reason why.

mm1967 you are SPOT ON mate but we will show them NEXT month.
Actions DO INDEED speak louder than words !

***********

WhosJohnGualt,
I think you are wrong.I also have children in these schools and I beleive all schools should benefit from this levy and they will not this levy does not even provide for the schools down the road and if you remember they said this themselfs a few months back and I also remember they also said ot was to early to put this levy back on the ballot.So waht has changed have they found a load of money somewhere we do not know about.How many aduitors are they going to have look at their books? I think this is the second one and the first one is a local person that was or is one the TF and they told them that the 63 cent levy wound not be enough.And this is not all about money any longer it is about a bunch of other things and the districts and TF actions. Believe me there are a bunch of other people in this community that supported them and both the levy and bond the last time and this time it will be NO.They should have thought about their actions before they made the comunity upset and then came back and ask them again for something.Seems to me this was what was not very smart.I will be glad when this is over and if it passes so be it and if it fails we will get more retaliation from the district in a form of taking more away from our children.I beleive the district has acted like a bunch of children themselves since April.These are my beliefs and opinions.Actions will speak louder then words and their actions have not been very understanding and kinda oneside to this point and they still have not learned anything.Also I have a life thank you and this is just one way I am saying for my childrens education the levy is not right way to go and will not address the long term financial needs of our school for the long term it is just wrong.

Everyone complains how little we pay our teachers. It looks to me like they could afford to pay them a little better. Yes having money in the bank is nice although when you are not paying people right then it really makes no sense to brag about how much you have saved. Also, when there are things that need fixed you fix them. Why do people put away money? So they have it when they need it. That way if something breaks down you can fix it. So, why arent they fixing what needs fixed? Why arent they paying our teachers a fair wage? So to me it is poor management. They can afford to pay a little better and also to have a savings.

One other issue people are looking at this like they biult this reserve off of the levy from the last 5 years.What did they actually do with the levy the last time?Also if you are going to come back to the public before this 5 year levy would expire why not get off of their butts and win back some community support on their own not with any outside group and put a levy to the public with the publics support that will answer the long term financial needs of our schools.But this means they may have to answer some tough questions and do a little leg work and get their hands a little dirty.This levy does not address the needs of our children,teachers and schools.It may address the boards and admin personal agenda but not whats right for the above mentioned.

**********

LibertyOrDeath,, Even though it seems like a lost cause THIS time, I am betting it will pass AFTER Mr. Snethan takes over, which is what I predict will happen. One thing that seems certain is that a house cleaning is forthcoming, and I will be glad when it is OVER, and we can pass this thing and Move On. One thing that needs to change IMHO, is the teaching method, if the kids do the work, and learn the lessons, they Pass to the next grade,, if Not, they repeat the same grade again, that seems to give them some incentive to stop goofing off and buckle down, It worked well in the OLDEN days. I feel like that little change would put the Teachers BACK in charge !
Be Blessed !

Apple wow, you were right on one thing. If this levy fails it will not put stress on district employees. That is because they do not care, they are making theres.

Ksmith you are correct they people downtown will still be making their 100,000 plus jobs for creating messes for our schools,children,teachers.They still do not get it.And Someone above mentioned this will pass when Mr Snethen took over.I have to agree this will pass with a few new board members that want to engage the public and Mr Smith is put in her place.Let me see I think Mr Snethen quit his job on the opympic weight lifting team to come home and see this mess taken care of and seen through.More then I see the rest of them doing they feel by shoving the problem off on a outside group was the answer that way they did not hacve to get their hands dirty.

mm1967, you are right, if the levy fails we can say goodbye to field trips. Apple basically said so. I wonder what else they are going to take from the children?

Heck it seems as if they just wasted another 50,000 by putting this levy on the ballot so soon.But did they pay for it actually I seem to remember in another article the TF said it would pay for it and actually I do not think they can pay to have it put on the levy so if they did indeed pay for it they must have donated the money to the district.But anyway you look at it this was a mistake and this money could have been spent on the schools.

the idiots are any of those accepting any taxing district having a $35.9 million excess. if that were acceptable and applied to every taxing group we would be unable to survive. the district being viewed as larger might apply for the state but hardly for other areas of the country. using that to justify what the administrative salaries are versus teacher compensation is a ridiculous.

Liberty, no one says the reserve is a product of mismanagement. I, for one, am glad they have it. However, it IS a product of dishonesty, since the District felt they needed the levy for "operating"....not building a reserve. Had they merely SAID they needed the levy to build the reserve, and needed it to continue to continue to build it, that would be one thing. To claim "poverty" and bemoan the loss of their "operating funds" when the levy failed is dishonest, especially since they didn't need the levy funds to operate in the past.
The district leadership has broken trust with the people....and that's going to take a long time to rebuild.

Did the article indicate what firm Mr. Westbrook works for and who commissioned the audit? Is this a standard yearly audit of the districts books by the state or something like this? It would be nice if this information was in the article.

If it was and I missed it somewhere, please feel free to let me know.

I also noticed in this article Mr Westbrook said he was glad to see they maintained their reseve but they want us to believe we are in for doom and gloom right away.I say wait till new board members and then work with the public themselves and gain some trust back and work for a long term plan for funding our schools.

It is the standard yearly audit. The audit will be presented to the board on Monday and posted on-line after the meeting.

Thanks Bril for the information.

It is my opinion that a levy with a sunset clause makes it necessary for the district to build up a healthy reserve because they don't know when their funding may come to an end. We need permanent funding for our schools so that the district will feel comfortable with a lower reserve, say around the 10% mark. Then the district will be able to more efficiently and effectively budget and spend the necessary money to educate our children. This is another reason why the levy in November is the wrong thing for our children and our community. It is time to break the cycle of this silly sunset clause and provide permanent funding for our schools.

It is also important to note that since the district has such a healthy reserve, the 63 cents is not necessary right now and in fact, the district can keep spending as they have been spending (with no cuts) for the next two years and still have a reserve that is above the state suggested level. This gives Saint Joseph plenty of time to formulate a long range plan with community input, determine what amount is necessary to properly and permanently fund education in St. Jo and get the buy in from the community.

Voting yes in November is a vote against the kids and against this community. A NO vote in November will send a message to the BOE/Administration that our children deserve better.

The audit is irrelevant to me in my view. What is relevant is the fact a status quo argument that has been continually been deemed as an ieffiecient means of doing business by a majority of a group base of people are now arguing for that element. I fail to understan why we have no confidence at all to argue for what it is truly needed. We cannot reach future state on status quo solutions because a plan for growth failed the first round. This sunset levy in my view will hurt more then help and I am not voting for anything that does not move things forward. There is no real commitment made with this money, they can do anything they want with it if passed and the strongest argument I heard is to maintain, that is it. I do not buy into that black cloud scenario one bit. The validations are out there to completely back this is the wrong direction to go. The sunset clause in my view is the root cause of the present state of the district. A permenant levy should have been argued for long ago and the district is in its present state because it was not. Alot of people knew this back then, but failed to fight for it. This stuff about it not being a new tax is crap, the last levy reached its shelf life, it expired, it is done. It also appears it was not used for its original intended purposes. And it was sold under pretenses that had changed over 5 years. The Apr argument failed because of lack of engagement with the public and a threatening type of approach element to the campaign. In my view, get the confidence to re-argue the case for a permenant levy and engage the entire community correctly to get the buy in instead of focusing on polling stats and numbers of specific areas. This is a new tax with a new purpose, I will not vote on a new tax of a previous version of an old one that has been proven time and time again as ineffective. I will vote on a new tax on a permenant levy approach with a campaign that takes a real stand and commits the money to improve school operations and building upkeep in all areas of town, not just a few. It is forgotten, a levy is an additional tax placed on publio services that already recieve funding from other resources. That type of tax should be implemented to improve for future state, not maintain, If we cannot maintain day to day operations on existing resources, then argue for property tax re-distribution to increase the percentage that goes to the district to meet that requirement. Argue for what is truly needed, get the confidence to do it, or we do not need it. It is No in November.

yougotta, the district aim is to keep the reserve at 17%. If they have to spend beyond that level, they don't want to go below the 10% you have presented.

With the current (no $.63) situation they project they will reach the 17% early in the 2012-13 school year and be at 11.7% at the end of the same year. So to keep the reserve you speak of there is essentially two years to act, is this enough time to gather necessary information, make a plan, set goals, and set strategies in place and reach said goals?

The PR company, with many years experience in school districts, says they need 14 months to assist in making the plan. Putting us in Dec. 2010-11 school year. They can begin their programs right away, but the effects may take a few more years to come to fruition. The $.63 with the sunset, although not the best solution, will give the scenerio a projected buffer of two more years to begin reaching the set goals. This is my reasoning for voting YES in November.

bril, how can the district ever effectively argue for a permanent levy if they are willing to accept a sunset clause now? How can the public trust them next time when they ask for a different amount if they know the amount they are asking for now is insufficient. The flip flopping gives the appearence that the district doesn't know what they are doing so it certainly does not establish any kind of trust.

As long as a new levy is passed by August of 2012, the district will have the funding for the end of the 2012-2013 school year when they would be in danger of reaching that critical 10% mark on their reserves. That is almost three years. I believe three years is enough time to achieve our goals.

Two years is enough time, if it is not, then you can go to the voters and ask for the bandaid you are asking for now. Asking for it now is not necessary and it is counterproductive.

brilind,
I would say you are the minority because there are way to many reason not to vote yes as Yougottabekiddingme has pointed out.They need to work for a levy which is right for our schools not a bandaid and then try and come back in a couple of years and ask the public for more!! How do you think that would be percieved by the public?Also do you think it would help out with the trust issue? Also do you think it would make the public think that our current board and administration knows what they are doing?Let me answer that for you the answer would be NO.The direction they are going is not the right one plain and simple.Its not about money as much as it is they have no idea what they are doing and not helping their cause for the schools and sure as heck are not helping the public trust and believe in them.They are out of touch with the public perception of them and are listening to a select few who have their own agendas.

In my opinion, I think they believe they are currently in a situation where any amount is better than nothing.

If I were to lose my source of necessay income, I believe I would find anything to work in the mean time, so I can continue to look for a new income source or solution.

Brilind,
It ddoes not matter if the levy is passed in november of this year or next year the revenue will not come in till the following year.So in reality it makes sence to wait and work towards long range funding with the whole community's support then it is to under fund our school and have the district come back in 2 years or so and ask for more it would do nothing but hurt our schools and our district future and not to mwntion put more distrust with our current administation.So in reality if they are not going to get the revenue till the following year why rush and not do the right thing? I do agree with you and about losing your soirce of income but it does not work that way with the levy.

bril, if I lost my job AND was lucky enough to have a large savings account, I would not settle for a crappy minimum wage type job, I would take the time to find a job that would provide stability and long term financial strength. Once my savings started to dwindle and if I had still not found a job that met that criteria, only then would I take a job that would only amount to a temporary arrangement until I could find a more approppriate job. That's the way I see it.

It is not clear to me how a reserve could ever be a liability. It is an "Asset" by definitin....Accounting 101.

Next, just what is the stated purpose of the reserve. If the catostrophic economic decline we have been in and through for the past 12-18 months does not trigger utilization of a "reserve", I'm not sure what would.

Keeping it to a defined minimum level also escapes me....if you have to maintain that "level".....what in the world do you have it for. Effectively, you don't.

Something is missing in this "picture"....

What triggers the use of the reserve....?

How much can be used....and if not 100%, why....?

Interesting perspective Apple, however I disagree. It was made very clear back in January the ineffectiveness of the sunset. Not everyone who voted no voted that way because of the lack of the sunset. The state formula argument was vague at best. And to this day, no one knows for sure how that even actually works. I have asked around to the people that should know, and I continually get vague or different responses. The formula also addresses state funding, not local. A property tax re-distribution could be argued for, but it would be a tough sell, that part I get. But the bottome line is the district without an additional levy states it cannot manage effectively. That means it is not able to manage with existing resources and I find that to be a major problem. The additional levy should be designed for improvements and progression to future state. There should be the confidence to argue for what is truly needed. There is not. I do not buy into getting the money any means possible philopshy. There are too many strings attached and honestly I believe there are entities who want this argument to hold St Jo back, so they can move ahead with other competing interests. That is not an acceptable argument. I will not accept status quo solutions, and will not accept lack of ownership for the cause from the district. This is not what the district stated they needed. They stated what they needed back in January and that is what they should stand on. Not back to a status quo solution because one go around was lost. You find a way to re-argue the case and get the buy in from the public to support it. As a taxpayer, I do not want to see this argument again in several years. I want to see arguments for bonds and true future state progression, not status quo solution. I disagree with the present philsophy and direction. I think a group of highly educated and skilled people should have the confidence to work for and strive to argue for what is truly needed. We either need it permenantly or we do not need it at all. I will not compromise my vote for status quo. It is No in November.

I agree with apple wholeheartedly. Vote yes in November, and get past this levy issue. Let the district get back to the business of earning the public trust, and vote yes for the children. I appreciate apple, and others that I've seen here, agree to disagre, but come together, even in disagreement, and attempt to work together for the future. That's key....but, hey....that's just my opinion...

Apple....."keep the reserves where they should be"

Where should they be.

When should reserves be "used"

Is there some reason $30,000,000 should draw intrest at less than 2% in perpetuity.....please explain the benefit to the school district.

I'm for a comprehensive solution.......and I'm not satisfied that reserves are never to be used. Help me understand

pops
I do very much agree with you the district needs to get back to listening to the public and gaining the public trust back,but that takes work on thier part.
They are not going to get past this levy because this is not the right amount for over the next 5 years and they will be back within the next 2 years asking for more and then the public is going to ask them why did they not do it right the first time and they will not get it and we will be back to square one all over again.You are correct we need to put this behind us but we need to do it right the first time not over and over and over.And this is just my opinion and beliefs.

The District SHOULD have reserves! In fact, at a minimum, they should have 25% of their annual operating expense budget in reserves. With a total budget of roughly $134M for 2009-10 (inclusive of capital improvements/maintenance expenditures), they should actually have reserves of at least $33.5M.

I agree with pops and yougotta. They need permanent revenue resources for operating funds (tax levy without a sunset) and they need to be honest--or transparent--about what they need/want and why. The question, for me, is not, "Do they need the levy?" but "What are the optimal amount and conditions for a levy to support the District and assure good education for our children?"

If we focus on these questions, I am certain we will all come to the conclusion that this November levy proposal is stop gap at best and we need to look at other ideas for accomplishing what we need in this town to ensure the future of our educational system and the other components of society that it affects.

MM1967-excellent post!! It needs to be done right this time, not several years down the road. I agree we need to put this behind us and move forward but I am not supporting status quo solutions that do not work and have been validated as such.

'lbc October 10, 2009 at 2:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Apple....."keep the reserves where they should be"

Where should they be. When should reserves be "used"'

EXCELLENT point. Reserves should be used when they are needed to supplement the operating fund. Right now, many nonprofits are in a position where they have had to use their reserves to support daily operations.

In this economy, some nonprofits will make it and some won't. Those who make it will most likely be the ones that have been able to put 3-6 months operating funds into reserve accounts and are now drawing on those to assure their continued operation--and many are doing that with the goal of re-building reserves later.

The District can and SHOULD use those reserves to support itself when necessary--like when a levy is not renewed and the admin is waiting to pass another levy. Otherwise, why have the reserves??? They should set a low limit/goal for using reserves just like they have set a high goal for building reserves.

"brilind October 10, 2009 at 12:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
In my opinion, I think they believe they are currently in a situation where any amount is better than nothing."

And that, in a nutshell, is what is wrong with St. Joseph--we don't believe we are good enough to expect more and we take what we get.

As a frequent reader, and first time poster, I have to agree with much of what has been said about the levy and the reserves.
However, one thing I think we may be overlooking is state funding. In these economic times, there have been Jeff City rumblings of the state funding cuts in education.
They began to surface back in July when the Gov. suggested cuts for the Tour of Missouri, and they have been peppered into various conversations since....
If this happens, (and its only a "if") I can't help but think that reserve will come in handy...and spend down quickly.
I would hate to think we would need to rely on it for our resources, but its a real possibility considering the plight of Missouri.

apple - Your post @1540 is one of the most sensible statements I have seen you make on this subject.
Many in the community appear to struggle between wanting appropriate revenues and yet disagreeing with what the district is doing with its funding.
A more valiant approach would be for Dr. Smith to render her resignation and there then in April be a special election for all board seats. This would certainly give people the opportunity to replace those felt not to be serving the interests of the educational process as deemed appropriate and end the debate about those in place making the decisions.

ampastrangelo,
That's something I could go for and I would almost bet the rest of the community could as well.One of the best things I have heard in a long time on here.

mm - Thanks, but as you can see an idea that will not receive unanimous support. Still it is a means toward ending the division within the community not satisfied with the direction of the district.
apple - You are correct no one will ever step down. I think a better description on that topic might be the fact that individual ego is taking precedence over circumstances not easily changeable by the people.

ampastrangelo,
I agree with you none of them will step down because of their ego and Mrs Smith is at fault for the current mess.She could of waited to close schools till she had community support for the right levy and the bond issue and a long term plan that the community could buy into.Her vision is flawed drasticly.She could have alos not done all of this redistricting mess and caused all of this overcrowding at the schools this year and caused all of the hardship on family's she has done so she is at fault for alot.She yanks the chan and the majority of the board with the exception of Mr Snethen are her puppets and she pulls the strings and they all have no chose but to follow.I hope they are having a hard time living with the direction they chose to go and the mess they have created and the nerve of them to act like nothing is wrong.

apple - Agree to disagree. I find Dr. Smith very much at fault. While I acknowledge she did have the "political" sense to know the bond should not have been put on the ballot her overall "vision" is more her personal desire of what should happen versus that the community appears to want.
Based on a recent NP article indicating the goals she brought to the district, I would be embarrassed in having no better priorities for such a pay grade and the people are correct in demanding much more for their money.

Mr s Smith has plenty of strikes against her and this is not from a personal experience but look at the direction she has our schools going south and in a hurry.I would say that the board in my opinion made a very poor decision renewing her contract as well as others.

Yes the current plan is a band-aid. When your cut; do you let it bleed or put something on it? I can't say I agree with some of the choices the district has made, but I don't have the education or experience to make it better. Best I can do there is voice my opinions to them, and hope they listen.
I do think it is a good idea to have some reserve money. Just like cars, buildings can break down and need work.
Webster was too small to leave running since we all cut the district budget last go around. I believe Neely needed more than just a band-aid to fix it. I was able to take the tour of it and I think everyone one at the school did a wonderful job with what they had to work with.
Perhaps we need to step back for just a second and look at the big picture. The children’s education is being held hostage by various people stuck on the he said/she said argument. I am kind of tired of it really. If you have a way to fix the problems facing our district, then by all means, please do so. I would like to thank all that do take the time to go to the meetings and at least provide feedback. Something is better than just sitting around complaining.

Apple, it is not holding money away from the kids. You need to quit saying that. Dr. Smith knows she is not well liked with the public, IF she cared at all about the KIDS she would resign! She knows it is her as well as others holding this district back. They need to do something FOR the kids and GET OUT!!!!That way we can get someone in here with a real plan and get money for these schools. So, quit saying what the public is doing to the kids and start looking at the mess the ones running it are causing for the KIDS!!!

Ksmith logical desisions would be to work with the public and gain their trust back and work for the long term financial needs of the schools. Look if this levy passes in November they will be back in less then 2 years or so asking for more because they have had aduitors telling them 63 cent levy will not fund the schools for the long term.And not to mention the fact that some do not see it does not amtter if the levy is on the ballot in Nov or next year sometime because the revenue off of it will not come till the following year.I am not saying do not fund the schools but things are just not on the up and up and we need to take care of this once and not time and time again.They also have enough funds to operate until a plan for funding our schools can be presented to the public with their input and support.There are several opinions pout there but why would wewant to go through this again in a couple of years we need to get it right and move forward.Look this aduitor said that he was glad to see that they have held onto the reserve and this school year has started so they must have enough coming in to fund the schools this year.

mm1967 your right, logical would be to have the district work with the public and make a long term plan to fund the school but, they are unwilling to do this. They are the ones affecting the children of this town. Not the people. The people are simply tired of not having a good long range plan. I do not think many people would have an issue with properly funding our schools as long as there was a valid plan in place. One that made sense.

tsmir37,
Some of us have went tot meeting and some have ansked question and have gottren the run around, so at some point things need to change for the betterment of our district and our schools.Sure they need funding I do not think anybody here thinks they do not but this is not the right way to fund them this will do nothing but put a bandaid on the issue and we are not in jepaordy of running out of funds for at least 2 years.So if this admin and board can let their egos go and work with the public for a change then they can oput a plan for the long term funding of our schools with the public support on the ballot and be done for some time to come.Also Like mentioned before if it doe not matter if this is on the ballot in nov or next year revenue will not come in till the following year so why not get it right the first time? Not to mention the fact they must work with the public to gain its trust back and then move forward.If this levy passes and they come back before the 5 years is up they will never get any more and also it will affect the long term planning for biulding new schools as well and we will not get any new schools any time soon.These are mty beliefs and also might mention what I have heard in the public as well.

If the entire board resigns should that include Mr. Snethen? They way some on this list have talked you would think he is Obama (or Obama 2008). Maybe they will give him the Nobel Peace Prize!!!

This is an audit from a CPA who apparently does a number of districts. Also, it is nice to get clarification on the operating reserve versus the capital reserve. You just can add the two together.

How can you have a long range plan when a significant portion of your funding source is short range?

drbjr,
Why would you include Mr Snethen when he is the only one who seems to get it and has sacrificed his job with the olympic weightlifting to come home and address the issue head on?The others on the board seem as if they just want to hand the issue off to the TF and wash thier hands of the issues the district faces.I would say personally Mr Snethen cares about our schools and our communitys children and his actions have proven this.

Ksmith you could have not put it any better they are not willing to work or communicate with the public they chose to have a outside group do it for them and they are not even willing to work with the whole community for the proper funding of our schools.The way they are going is going to make it harder and harder for anything to get passed for our community's schools.For the life of me I just cannot understand why they cannot see this.Or maybe it is to hard for their egos to admit they are going down the wrong path and the public is upset and are not seeing things their way and they are going to continue down the path od shoving things down our throats.But I think the public has had enough of the shoving from these people.

I was responding to this:

apmastrangelo October 10, 2009 at 4:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

apple - Your post @1540 is one of the most sensible statements I have seen you make on this subject.
Many in the community appear to struggle between wanting appropriate revenues and yet disagreeing with what the district is doing with its funding.
A more valiant approach would be for Dr. Smith to render her resignation and there then in April be a special election for all board seats. This would certainly give people the opportunity to replace those felt not to be serving the interests of the educational process as deemed appropriate and end the debate about those in place making the decisions

What I don't understand is why he deserves special dispensation compared to the rest. Has he voted differently on the levy/bond issues? Did he call for a no confidence vote in Dr. Smith? What makes him the messiah?

drbjr,
I do not think anybody he is the messiah but he has listen and has listened to the community and has given up his position as I spoke about before to come home and work on the issues at hand and the rest does not seem as if they have and just want to have someone else do their jobs.These are my opinions as everybody is entitled to have one.I also believe Mr Smith should resign as well and take a few with her as well as it is not a bad idea to have a special election for the board but fullly realize this will not happen but we will get 2 new members in April.

The only ones trying to pull a "power play" is the district. They are taking things left and right from the kids just to prove they can. They are NOT talking to the public or involving the public due to the fact that they do have power and they do not think they need too.People who vote NO are doing it to show we as a community are not going to put up with this. We are not going to have them dictate to us. We are not going to give them a small band aid when they need a long range plan. One that involves community input. When I say community I mean the whole town. Not just certain sides.

Good to know the auditor's comments and perspective on the reserve. As Beau Musser (Benton alumni & CPA) pointed out in the July BOE meeting, the school district is being good stewards with the tax payers' money. Agree with mm and others that more transparency is needed with respect to intentions of the BOE & SJSD Admin. Nice to know our reserve is in the "normal" range, especially given our tough economic times.

The levy with a sunset is indeed a bandaid for a cut (to restore funding that was lost). However, what our community needs is a heart bypass! We need the BOE & SJSD Admin to engage the community in developing a true long range plan. Hopefully, that will happen.

The decision to support the current levy proposal or not is a tough one. apple, I agree with you that withholding money from the schools will hurt the St. Joe's Kids in the long run. My big fear is passing a levy with a sunset will mean we always fund our operating levys with sunsets - which will be the death of our schools and thereby our future.

I think Beau Musser's strategy was the correct one: a) Engage the community, b) develop a long range plan, c) develop a levy proposal that implements the first part of the plan. Too bad the TF/GOF/OCD wouldn't listen to him - just like the BOE didn't listen to Dr. Smith on leaving the bond off the last election.

Glad to see the healthy & respectful discussions on these comments. The community must figure out a way to facilitate an open, healthy discussion and build a consensus. St. Joe's Kids are counting on us!

Thanks Ksmith this is exactly what I have been saying it id going to take community input and the whole community.And this is nothing more then a bandaid and it is not right fdor our communitys schools.Fund then correctly the first time but this is going to take all sides working together which the board and the admin is going to have to understand at some point instead of shoving things down our throats as they have been for years.

mm-
I can understand about wanting to get things right. My big concern is we have fought this same stupid battle for so long now and have lost before. If we wait and try to come up with a plan before taking action, will we bleed out before we can get one? How long before the reserves dry up and we are in the hole? Take a look at what happened when we took the 63 cents away; school closings, restructure of district lines, and lay-offs. Now can you imagine what is going to happen when we hit the red in a few years? I don’t want to and the kids should have to find out either.
The funding for public school systems does not go from top to bottom. We (locally) provide the majority of the money for our children’s education, then county, state, and federal. The amounts get smaller the higher you go, and just because we said no to the levy doesn’t mean that anyone else is going to step in and pay the bills. No I don’t think a band-aid is going to fix the problem, but it may give us time to find a better solution.

I also remember Mr Rucker being at that ACE meeting as well but I do not see him engaging the community.I see him as thew rest of the board he as well as the rest get mad if you question them and are unwilling to engage the community.See in realality I think we all want to do what is right for our schools,children,teachers but it has to be both sides working together and for some reason the board and admin and their hired guns the TF are unwilling to actually do this with the entire community.This is so simple but it is not happening.Look I feel they have just wasted 50,000 more of our tax payers dollars by pputting this levy back on the ballot at this time.Time will only tell but I personally think this is going to fail miserably on Nov 3rd for several reasons.

tamir37,
This is a possiblity but I also think this is because of a little word called COMMUNICATION.And by saying this I mean the district has over the years shoved things down the community's throat and they are sick of it.The district must properly engage all areas of the community and listen and involve all areas instead of alienating them and it would get them alot further.I really truly believe this has been the district down fall for all of these years and not getting the public support.As far as the school closings and redistricting they could have waited for this to happen as well and this has also hurt their cause.This seems as if it is going to get alot more messy before the district gets involved and actually works for what is right for our schools,children,and teachers.Also one last thought if this is passed and they come back before the 5 years has expired they will not get anything passed by the public and it may as well hurt the long term plan and biulding schools in the long run.Dont bandaid things fix them correctly.

Proper funding is more then 63 cents and needs to be for the long term with community support and community involvement.It seems as if you do not engage the people you are asking for funding you just may not get what you are asking for.It also seems as if we have plenty of funding for the next couple of years with tour reserve and the current tax base and what we get from the state to operate till this is worked out.These are my own opinions.This not right and we need to get it right the first time instead of coming back and back and back time and time again.

Having read many posts from mm1967m i have reached the conclusion that unless the entire board is replaced to his liking and most of the administration too AND the replacements come to his house, listen to him lecture them AND do what he says that he will continue to rant. Nothing will change. He is not worth the electrons anymore.

I actually see no reason for a bandaid when all it takes is involving people and communication and gaining trust and public support.Seems awlful easy to do but I guess some do not think this is the way to go.

drbjr,
Wrong you are just wrong this is not what I was saying.What was being said was that if these people do not wantto do what they were elected for then they need to be replaced with a open election.I do not think I could control that out come.Some of you may like the staus quo but you cannot admit some of us do not and are willing to work forwhat is right for our schools while some sit on their hands and do nothing more then turn things over to other people to do their jobs.Now if you wantto talk about coming to people homes I think the door knocking was suppose to start this weekend by the teachers which I hope if and when they knock on the communitys doors people will be nice to them but they have not hit opur part of this community yet and from what I have heard they will not because I heard they were told to focus on the east and NE.Real community engagement if this is truly the case is'nt it?

mm1967 I totally agree it should be easy to do but they are not making it easy. Then they are going to blame the public if the levy fails.

Ksmith you are correct they are going to try and blame the public if the levy indeed does fail but in all reality it will be because of their own doings.Why for the life of me would they want tot alienate the same people you are asking funding from makes no sence.

mm1967 I have to wonder why they are trying to ignore most parts of this town? They are supposed to care about the whole town. One side should not matter more or less than any other side. People from all sides of town have the right to vote so you would think they would want to reach as many voters as possible.

John H,
I have a question for you and you may be able to answer since you were involved at the beginning with the coalitation.
Why are they so scared as it seems to engage and work with the entire community for the good of our schools,children,teacher?
Because I am sure there are parents out there from all areas of our community that would love to be involved and have their opinions heard and concerns addressed.I do not mean to put you on the spot but was more just curious.

Ksmith I agree and as Isaid if you are asking the public for something you would think you would engage them and ask for their support.I cannot understand this unl;ess they think they have enough support in the NE to get this levy passed.But if this is indeed their direction this doe not help their cause in the future for anything they ask the community for and how does that help our schools,children,and teacher?

For Starters, I would see things differently if Dennis Snethan held the position of Melody Smith, he is the ONLY one in there who seems to know what is needed and wanted by BOTH sides !,,,,, IMHO !! Anyone else think so ??

Steve_O
I agree with you Dennis Snethen seems to be the only one who is listening to what is needed.Not to mention he gave up alot to come home and see this issue addresed.But what do I know I am grew up in the southend of town and we need to be told what we need and what is right for our children.And all we are doing is ranting.Novemeber if the levy addressed the right amount anf had community involvement and was for the long range of our schools I would vote for it but it fails to address the long term and the district fail to engage the community andwork with us for the future of our schools.

Steve_O I agree with you..

Apple the downside to me is that this is not the needed solution. Why keep fighting and keep trying to put plans out there that are not solving the long range problem? This causes more wasted time and money. They need to have good long range plans and then fight to get it passed. Not fight every few months or few years for something that is not fixing the issue. They need to get a plan figured out so they can concentrate on the education of the children and not trying to get a levy passed all the time.

Apple, they have had 5 years to come up with a long range plan. They had the .63 sunset levy once. I would think in that amount of time they could have involved the community and come up with a long range plan. How much more time do they need?

*

Ksmith
you are correct they had 5 years to cause the mess we have today and if that was palnning we are infor a lot of trouble ahead.You notice How I reply to one peticular person (********)this is better then engaging a name calling,degrading person.When all they want to do is call you names,degrade peole and children from certain areas of town.It is easier.

mm1967 you are so right. We are in for trouble with the way they plan. And yes, you have the solution for dealing with one particular person who stoops to name calling and degrading.

Ksmith hopefully those things will change with the addition of at least 2 new board members in April.

mm1967 I sure hope things do change. It is past time for a change.

Couldn't agree more.I think it will ifthis levy fail I believe there will be some people on the hoseat if this levy fails in the administration.

Apple, I think there's a possible down-side to this thing passing in November. If it passes, and they are planning to come back with another request for money, in 2 years, doesn't it have an appearance of gouging? If the economy isn't getting any better for the school district, it's not getting any better for the taxpayer either. I doubt that there is any taxpayer out there in St. Joseph, whose savings hasn't been affected by this economic downturn. Could this be a "feel-good election"? They'll just feel better if they can get one passed. Is it a job security strengthener? I am actually surprised by your posts. I thought you were against the sunset, also. What happened?

apple October 10, 2009 at 10:46 p.m.
they did come up with a five year plan, the community cared not to care about it.

Apple, not just a 5 year plan. A Good, Workable, plan is needed.

Ksmith how does it feel to be labeled a hijacker?We sem not to be able to have a good sound discussion about thing because we do not agree wit hone peticular person and see things their way.Talk about whinners.
Amd momswisher you are correct a good workable plan is need for our schools not a bandaid.

*******************

I have to say it was nice today to see some first time people posting snd being able to agree and disagree without name calling what a change.

Apple, we brought up the H1N1 in the getting kids fit article because the article talked about the Type A flu. Why dont you read the whole thing.
mm1967 pretty sad we are labeled hijackers just because we do not agree with one person. Last time I checked I was allowed to have and voice my opinion.

Ksmith I thought we had that right but maybe not.Ksith can you think of any positives Smith has done in her time?I see a flawed long term plan that is failing miserably.Schools over crowded in all areas of town.Loss of the levy and probably again the levy will fail.Redistricting which caused undue hardship on family's. Gee it is hard to find any positives in that would you agree?

Ksmith I forgot the 2 school closings and the ayp and the NCLB sanctions.

Dillygent1,I believe you touched on a lot of good points and my opinion is it may just be a fell good thing along with a job saver for some if it passes but this is just my opinions.

mm1967 I have to agree with you on what Dr Smith has done in her time in office.

ok apple, i will answer what she has done good. She has done

oh wait, I cant think of anything. Maybe you could give me some examples.

Ksmith
You didn't expect a answer did you?Doesn't seem as you are going to get one it must be just as hard to think about what positives she has done for our schools,children,teachers.

mm1967 no I did not figure I would get an answer to that question. Hey I tried though.

jah gives ACE's entire justification for waiting until a later election in listing the concerns of mr. musser. musser's explanation of budgetary issues convinced me of the good work done by pullen. ms pullen gave good evidence for our argument for Waiting on this election..........

now we have before us a sunset (which is demonstrated in an article today to be a choice of last resort) for .63 which will result in an inadequately funded district. if the levy passes the district will still have to deficit spend. the sunset is a impermanent solution to a permanent issue. not only is it impermanent, but the result is agreed upon.... the year the darn thing runs out will be the last year that the district is within the sjsd's own goal for a healthy reserve.

the argument that this levy is needed to restore immediate funding is false. this levy could have been held in any of four elections, as late as august 2010, and not produced one single additional cent in the coffers of the district.

i do believe that the current structure of our election cycle is a little slow to respond. as for the overthrow of the entire BOE.... that is folly. i do not believe the BOE is thoroughly flawed, and i do not believe that the loss of rucker or blakely as individuals is the issue. i think the makeup of the remaining members, with a new chairperson ( hopefully one of the new members) in april has the potential to create an entirely new window of opportunity. there is good stock and understanding of the process in the BOE currently. the boe is a team. the two junior members are just coming in to their own, and two new strong figures may change the entire dynamic.

now the voters find themselves with two hard choices. both camps have excellent arguments to support their cases.

just know that, if the levy fails there IS still an election following the april general election in which to give your support. at that time we may have an entirely different face on the BOE and the public may be more inclined to address the levy without a sunset. some have commented that the lrpc will not be finished with its findings for 14 months.... wouldn't starting the process of engagement assist the community in recognizing change and backing a permanent and justifiable amount on a levy?

i think so.

Heritage
I do not think this April election for the new board member will be a problem people wiill show uop in full force to get these new members.I also believe that this levy is going to fail in the next 3 weeks and then there will be more retaliation from the board and they will take more things away from our children and teachersas well as the schools this is just the type of people we are dealing with .They are so far out of touch with reality that it isn't funny.I al;so believe they hurting their cause for getting anything further from the voters of St Joseph

well 2 years to see what is needed 2 years for a plan....what about the children four classes will have graduated high school and a 3rd grader will be in middle school....

How long will the reserve last?

w/$0.63 = FYE 2013 the reserve will be 17%
w/0 $0.63 = FYE 2012 the reserve will be 18%

(FYE = fiscal year end)

These are the numbers upon which both Beau Musser (Benton alumni & CPA) and SJSD CFO Pullen agree.

$0.63 buys 1 more year of adequate funding for St. Joe's Kids. Then, the real funding problems begin. To survive the next 5 years the levy will need to increase by approximate $2.85!

With the passage of the levy the reserve will be at approximately 17% within 4 years.

Without the passage of the levy the reserve will be at approximately 18% in 3 years.

These proformas assume no maintenance deferrals nor salary freezes.

IMHO we should follow the auditor's recommendation and keep the reserve above 20%. The BOE has currently set a target of 17%.

mm1967 October 10, 2009 at 9:53 p.m. "Why are they (the TF) so scared as it seems to engage and work with the entire community for the good of our schools,children,teacher?"

mm - I have absolutely no clue. However, given the experience of the GOF & the TF, I was stunned by their lack of insight into political initiatives and how to truly engage the community.

The GOF/TF really do/does believe the way to "fix" this problem is by getting the NE side of town to force things down the throats of others areas

They also believe they can manipulate the media (i.e. the NP probably thinks this story is news - it had been planned by the GOF for months) into publishing positive stories and that will eventually turn the tide of public opinion!

That is just disappointing and arrogant leadership.

apple - I agree with you in applauding Dr. Smith's willingness to tackle some really tough problems left for her by previous administrations. Obviously, not attempting building a new school for over 30 years creates systemic problems.

The challenge is probably more with the approach. You can't go into a room and develop a plan and expect the community to buy into it. The BOE & SJSD Admin learned a lesson the hard way. I am optimistically hopeful they will engage the community after this levy campaign is over, and build a consensus on how to best help St. Joe's Kids.

I think Unicom's proposed approach for community engagement gets it exactly right. Everyone can watch the video of the presentation to the SJSD BOE on http://info.stjoekids.com. If you have other suggestions for firms to use, please send those suggestions to community@stjoekids.com.

drbjr - You have read my post accurately; I mean for "all" members to resign their seats including Mr. Snethen and if any wish and feel worthy of their conviction can offer themselves available in the April election.
For the record I believe mr. Snethen is in the minority of board members willing to listen and also understanding the full implications of what the community is saying. None the less he can not be given preference over any other member under such a scenario.

Having the sunset in the levy and the repeated calls for an entire new board and administration reminded me of a concept called a doom loop. Here is an article on it.

http://www.jimcollins.com/article_topics/articles/good-to-great.html

The District and City need to break this cycle. This particular Board and Dr. Smith did not, by themselves, create the cycle that we are in, the community helped perhaps overwhelmingly. We have a significant portion of our population that does not value education. For many years (decades) a significant portion of our community was able to survive and prosper without a decent education. They believed this situation would always exist. In this situation they were able to pay less in taxes that were really necessary since the schools were not viewed as a necessity in their world. This had the odd effect of increasing their disposable income in the short term while decreasing the wealth of their community. Well, this is long standing practice has come home to roost. We have a loop spiraling ever downward. Those who seek to break the spiral are viewed with suspicion and subjected to vitriol from those who fail to see the problem.

Remember the inflationary spiral of the late 70s and early 80s. Remember the harsh economic and monetary remedies necessary to break its back? Remember the growth created by low inflation rates? There were those who complained because with the reduction of interest rates that eventually happened reduced their income. Never mind that this reduction of interest rates benefited the country as a whole. They were only concerning about their individual interests. That is what we have happening in this community. Right here, right now.

drbjr - In broad concept I agree with your views but within the confines of a community responsibility for not uniting the people toward the generally accepted concept of providing an effective educational process must also be addressed. To this end the buck stops with the BOE and their failures. There is no purpose served in rehashing the multitude of complaints as I am sure you are aware of them.
What remains evident in nearly every discussion is the fact that this district, with minor exception, lacks the decisive direction desired and needed to unite the community and until that occurs the fragmented pockets of support and opposition will not end.

You know it just may be a good idea if the NE and people like apple break away from the rest of the school and take all of their money and run their schools and biuld their own darn school and the rest of the community will take care of their own.Apple the HIPOCRITE.

To answer your question Apple, I was not living here five years ago. I came from an area where the tax base is 4 times above here as it relates to school funding. In that area, additional funding was dictated by what is called a "mello roos" tax which is an additional local tax to take care of public services within specific areas of a community. That is its design, and it does not go into what I call "incidental" things that certain basic property tax percentages seemed to have merged to over time. It insures public and educational services are funded, especially in newer areas where there is increased demand. The amount is voted on by council, andpublic input is strongly encouraged. I am retired military, worked for 2 universities, one municipality, and at present I am working on a corporate database project for future state of their business model. I sit on organizational boards and am a member of various organizations outside of the city, with the goal of promoting new interest for people to come to St. Jo to visit and maybe even choose to live here. Comments about people not being involved and just spending too much time complaining on a computer is crap to me. No one really knows who is involved, especially since "being anonymous" seems to still rule the day. Just because they are not "involved" with this issue, does not mean they are not community involved. I have plenty of experience to provide input. I will take it even further Apple, I have the confidence to put my background and experience up alongside anyone who is presently on the BOE, administration, etc. I have stated in previous posts I am already committed to other endeavors or I would take a crack at a political or board seat here. If had the time, I would be organizing a drive to challenge this direction. I think it is wrong, full of "political strings attached", and I disagree with the overall philosphy. I am speaking out as a citizen of this community. This group does not speak for me. They are not the official spokesgroup of the district. No motion was ever made to that effect, there is only one group I know of who had that status and they are now extremely quiet or they do no longer exist. John Hickman is a real stand up individual and everything he says about what has gone on behind closed doors I completely agree with. The district caved to political interests and lost confidence in the community because they do not want to engage as a whole. I fall back to the NP editorial about fighting back and hitting hard against status quo solutions. Guess that one really did not mean a whole lot to those who heavily critisized the sunset clause. What spiral? The present course is status quo, there is no push for change. Future state means an aggressive step forward and to fight for it, now, not a decade from now. It is No in November. Argue for what is needed, now, or we do not need it.

It came from your post on the other post and that is where it was suppose to be about the southside people rubbing off on you and making you sick leave it at that you are the sick one and you need help.Like the old commercial that used to be on TV Charter offers help.Go get some for you HIPOCRITIC WAYS.I will not really tell you on here what I truly think of you because it is not very nice and children have been on here before looking and posting so you owe them a thnks or I would really tell you.

Dr. B., You sound like management or law to me, as I have read your posts. What you refer to as a "downward spiral", I refer to as a "viscious circle". We pay low salaries. We tend not to be the kindest to our employees. Then we get upset when we don't have the best employees. It kind of comes down to...you get what you pay for. I have always felt that one of the reasons some in this community do not respect education is largely because, for many people here, education doesn't lead to better economic conditions for one's family. A person has to see a relevance to it. When he/she doesn't see the relevance, that person doesn't understand the value of education. To me, it comes down to employers not paying very well and employees not always working as carefully as they should. I would really like to see the business community getting involved in education to see how business and the education communities might mutually benefit. They both have areas of expertise which could be of benefit to each other. Another reason for the poor concept of education in this community is...look at the 3 largest employers here. They are (l) a not-for-profit hospital (2) a pork plant and (3) SJSD. This tells me that there are basically 3 opportunities in St. Jo. Be a doctor. Be a butcher, or be a teacher. Two of the three don't pay very well. John, status quo is not a positive. Status quo is sliding backwards.

mm - I think apple has a point. Appears to me you fired the first shot this time. Looks like you both need to take it down another notch so we can keep the discussion productive.

apple October 11, 2009 at 2:57 p.m.

"Some agree with you because all they here is a "no" vote and attach themselve to any excuse for no they can find."

That is an easy way to rationalize the marginalization of those who disagree with your perspective. I.e. it would have been easy for me to say that about pops' view on sunsets until we discussed the issue further and I discovered his issue was trust and that we see things very similarly from a political perspective.

When you stop and listen to people and avoid judging them you might discover that you can learn something from people with whom you don't agree.

apple October 11, 2009 at 2:57 p.m.

"We don't have time to get everyone involved for a long range plan and stil keep funding our schools."

You are correct that there is no time to engage the community prior to the levy vote in November. Following that vote, we must make a concerted effort to engage the community and find a way to build a consensus within the entire community for St. Joe's Kids.

dillygent1, the former not the later. The problem is that so many jobs located here are only worth so much. Just because they are located in St. Joe does not make them worth more money. Look at the history on so many industries. Take meat packing. It used to be that cattle were driven to the rail head and then taken to market. There they were butchered to a degree (perhaps not to the finished retail cut). Then the packing plant moved to be closer to the production of the product. They moved from Omaha, etc. to places like Lexington, Neb. It is cheaper to ship the processed meat than live cattle. The market fundamentally changed. Look at Wire Rope. It moved here from Connecticut in the 50s to take advantage of our central location to cut shipping costs (a big line item for them). Now they are building a plant in China. Why? Same reason, shipping costs. China and Asia is demanding the same high quality product made here but the shipping costs are something huge. St. Joe offers no competitive advantage. That is what our work force needs to offer employers to get a high paycheck ... a competitive advantage. We do not offer that. In fact, our poorly educated (often by choice) workforce offers a competitive disadvantage which can only be made up with lower wages.

apple - we will never successfully engage all areas of our community unless we agree to stop marginalizing their opinions when they are different than our own.

In other words, you can't achieve what you agree with until you have the courage to change your approach with what & how you disagree.

drjr - you are absolutely correct - if we don't differentiate our community in a way that provides an undeniable competitive advantage, the companies will go elsewhere.

Why is the entrepreneurial center of the world in Silicon Valley - not because of the low tax rates - it is one of the most expensive places to live with a very high tax base - and stellar school system

Why is the financial center of the world in Manhattan, NY - not because of the low tax rates - it is also one of the most expensive places in the world to live.

This all begins and ends with smart people - entrepreneurs will build their companies where well educated people live - and where good school systems exist to educate the community. Having well funded & run schools is the single most important economic develop tool any community has.

John H,
My above comment I posted it to the wrong article I meant to post it to the article about the co-chairs and apple more degrading of people post about people making her sick and rubbing off on her.So I did not really take the first shot I just posted it to the wrong post and replied to her which I know it is a waste of time but she is just a degrading individual and someone needs to put her in her place.One could only hope she did work for the district or the TF and knew who she or maybe he was.Also it seems to me as if they did have time way before this point in time to engage the community on the levy issue they just chose not to.I will be voting NO for several reason on November 3rd plain and simple and when the people in charge wake up and get off of their butts and realize what it is going to take to get things passed for our schools and work with the entire community then I will vote yes.

You would know progress if it bit you in the nose and actually you really do not care about this issue postfrom several months ago prove this.And no by the looks of the thumbs up and down which you do not like seems nobody cares what you have to say.Look at it.I will be back to my ************ in my response to you but just wanted you to know you are a ruthless,cold hearted individual,name calling degrading person that only cares about your own views and personal agendas.Maybe you shouldn't read this you just might get sick since I do not live in your nice little part of the community.

Jobs and Company's do not locate to St Joseph Mo because of several issues and the schools are one of them but there is more to it then just our schools.All we try to attract is company's like Triumph Foods and what has that done for our community when the majority of the employees are not from the local area nothing wrong with bring in employees but they should have had to hired the majority of local work force before anybody was brought in.We had a chance to get Smith electric Vehicles here ,What happened to that they wqent to Kansas City and we had a skilled work force here from Snorkel qualified to do these jobs and we know alot of those people are laid of permently.Our schools do play a part but there are also other reasons as well.

mm1967, the quality of the schools is a major decision making factor, however, you miss the point of my post which is that the CURRENT WORKFORCE in St. Joseph is poorly educated. Companies like Smith go to cities where the are able to locate enough workers who can read and write. Having a top notch school district does TWO things, it attracts employers who have personnel relocating here and it prepares a solid workforce similar to a farmer preparing the soil with good inputs.

Snorkel was here because the company started here. When it restarted it was here because the plant, some workers and primary investors were here. It had nothing to do with the quality of the St. Joseph workforce.

Why are they poorly educated I seemed to get a good education in our schools in the 70,s,80,s.I went on to further my education, have moved away for my career but came home for my children could attend school where I as well as my wife got a good education.Are you saying these uneducated people are products of the St Joseph School district?As far as Smith Electric Vehicles and the snorkels qualified workers Years ago I worked with these people and it seemed as if they were pretty intelegent individuals capabile of reading blueprints,schematics,and all of the assembly diagrams.So you see these folks could read and write.Seriously you cannot argue that these folks were not qualified ot perform the Smith jobs.Not to mention Altec workers the are laid off are qualified as well and these jobs even though manufacturing jobs they would have paid good.Maybe one of the other things that stopped them from coming was tax incentives and also just maybe Unions had something to do with it as well.But we had the qualified workers.I agree our school do play a part in attracting Company to our community but this is not all they take into consideration before coming here.Our chamber needs to work a little harder as well are city goverment needs to as well.The school mess will work it self out either with the current people in or charge or with new people in charge.But it has to involve all people,all areas,and must have community support which is lacking at this point.

You made my point.

apple - "The engagment process must delete those that wish to only derail progress"

Really?! Seriously!? You must be one of the GOF on the TF - this is EXACTLY their belief and part of the reason I got fed up with them!

How, exactly, do we divine the intentions of those who wish to "derail progress?"
- Is it those who ask tough questions?
- Is it those who have differing opinions?
- Is it those with different priorities?
- Is it those whose research leads to different conclusions?
- Is it those from certain areas of town?
- Is it those from certain levels of affluence?

These are EXACTLY the groups that were systematically excluded by the GOF/TF!

In Unicom's presentation, they were clear - NO ONE IS EXCLUDED from the community engagement process. You can watch the presentation for yourself at http://info.stjoekids.com.

apple - if we use your logic, which is the logic used for the past 50 years, we will get the same results we have always gotten. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. By definition, the approach you consistently propose is crazy.

Oh, wait, I disagree with apple, so I must be a hater from a low income area of town that doesn't get involved in community service and only wants to derail progress. Sorry to disappoint apple, I live in the NE, have a masters degree and own my own business. do extensive volunteer work on a national level and am sick and tired of the "St. Joe Way."

We have to do better for St. Joe's Kids.

johnh - Your list hits the nail on the head.
Rubber stamp our plan; you are wonderful.
Question, oppose, or otherwise want revision; you are against the kids and education.
Many just refuse to acknowledge the fact that a variety of the policy decisions made by this district are simply out of sync with that needed in elevating the educational process in the district and equally important what sectors of the community want.

apple: "The voters screamed they wanted a sunset,"

The voters did not scream this. There was NO exit polling done. The district and yourself are assuming this is the reason it failed even though they have gotten alot of feedback from the people in the community that says it was not.

The TF, the BOE, the administration have misread the community.

It's not about not wanting new schools but we can save the current ones at about half the cost it will take to biuld a new School.For example it was 4 million to renovate Neely as well as Hall and the cost associated with biulding a new school is in the neighborhood twice that ammont.Also it keeps the neighborhood school open for several reasons this is a good thing.Sure the schools need funding but they need to have opproperate funding not a bandaid that they will have to come back in a couple of years and go through this all over again and they know they are going to have to come back in a couple of years.So why not do it right the first time?As far as 80million for a sports complex for one school is just rediculious and the first thing we need to worry about is education,our children,and teacher.If they were talking about bilding schools one for one and not merging schools they would not have such a issue getting a bond passed to biuld schools but people want their neighborhood schools and for some reason this is to hard for some to understand.Also why would you want large schools with over 600 or 700 students and the problems associated with them.This is where Smith's vision is flawed seriously because the commuity seems not to buy into it and she cannot come to the conclusion this is not what everybody wants in their schools.More aless if you tear doen Neely replace Neely,if you tear down Hall or Hyde replace one school for each.Or you can renovate them and keep the biulding you have and save a bunch of money and operate them.There are areas that do not have schools that need schools but the way they are going about this it seems as if it iis going to be a long time till any ground to biuld any schools is going to be a long time off.

yougotta - this misreading was perpetuated by the experienced politicians on the TF that believed they could "divinely determine" the voter's desires. We will see in a few weeks if they were right (my guess it has more to do with the level of mistrust & misunderstanding of the reserve).

drbjr,
No I do not believe your points have been proven or made but you are entitled to your opinions.And you never answered the question do you believe these uneducated people you say we have are they products of the St Joseph School District and if they are what does that say for the district?Were they just passed from grade to grade till they were out of the system because someone in the school did not care enough to make sure they were educated?You seem to think along the lines as 238er used to think.

Apple: "To get this off the ground we must start by trying to establish what we want to accomplish, number on for me is to update the schools and build new ones. "

This is something I agree with you on. I would like to UPDATE schools when possible and build new ones where needed to give our children state of the art learning facilities where they can achieve to the best of their ability. Here are some more of the things I would like to see accomplished: I want to increase student achievement through smaller class sizes, lower student/teacher ratios. I want to add optional classes to our elementary curriculum that will give our children a competitive advantage.

I imagine that you and I share similar goals. In fact, I believe that most who care enough to post here only want the best for our children.

Here is the point we disagree on: how to get there.

Fact: The SJSD does not NEED .63 cents right now and can keep spending as they have been spending until 2012.

Fact: 63 cents with a sunset clause is NOT ENOUGH to get us through the next five years.

Fact: 63 cents with a sunset clause only gives us a one year cushion before our district will face financial disaster.

Fact: asking for and getting the 63 cent levy with the sunset clause is not necessary to prevent any impending financial disasters (because there are none) and it does NOT do anything to achieve the goals that most of us can agree on.

These facts beg the questions: why 63 cents? why the sunset? why now?

63 cents in November is the wrong levy, wrong terms, wrong time.

apple - "I welcome debate and discussion as long as it is to acheive a goal not to derail it and stop it from happening."

Your comments in the post referenced is the primary misunderstanding that exists - you believe citizens can't complain about history/circumstances, they can only be productive about moving forward. Sorry, it won't work that way. Before people who perceive themselves to be outsiders will trust, our community must first take time to build trust within it. The community engagement will take time - some results may come quickly (i.e. few months or a year) but for real culture change in St Joe to happen, it will take 10+ years. We have to be committed to making that happen if we wish for our city to thrive.

We can't discount people who don't "think" as we do - that is more of the same and we will achieve the same result.

PS - I attacked in my last comment more than debated. I apologize and will try to refrain from that.

Yougottabekiddingme,
Well said and yes if school cannot be renovated biuld new ones to replaced them not the plan of supersize schools and the problems those bring to the community.
And John H you are very correct it is going to take some major time before trust can be biult in this community because for years it has been dived and the trust has not been there.

I never have heard what the "purpose" of having a reserve is.

If you have a reserve for a rainy day.....isn't the most serious recession in 60 years, getting close to a rainy day.

Does it make any sense to collect tax dollars and put them in a 1% interest bearing account. Is that really a good use of tax dollars.

Seems to me if you collect a tax dollar there should be a stated purpose for its utilization. Making additional profit for bankers is not my idea of a great purpose.

In earlier comments verious folks described what the School district was giving up when the levy failed. Is there some responsible thinking to keep reserves in a veeery low interest bearing account and sacrificing those needs for the district. If you don't use "reserves" in a crisis...what do you have them for.

Sorry mm, I got tired of posting and became a lurker only occasionally reading this stuff anymore. I see you are still posting your 4 million dollar number. Will you never learn? (Also, consider this, the new school was to replace two which under your numbers would be 8 million, so there is only 9 million to explain the difference. Also, you never did address how the landlocked situation would be cured. How about the inability of the Neely students to play basketball (shared gym/cafeteria with low ceiling?)

Now back to lurking and read real news at other sites.

apple, you bring up an excellent question: "What happened between April and November that causes us needing so much more?"

Nothing happened. IMO, they KNEW they would eventually need more than that in the Spring. I believe they probably settled for that amount since they were also asking to remove the sunset and for the bond. Here lies the real problem. It seems that the district doesn't feel like they can be honest with the voters regarding their real needs. Why is that? I imagine that the mistrust between the voters and the SJSD is a two way street. To me, this is all the more reason we need community engagement for the LRP. The citizens of St. Jo have the opportunity to become a part of the process and give real imput that will be valued by the BOE and administration. Hopefully through this process, we (voters, BOE, administration) can have a meeting of the minds so to speak. Through this process, the voters become stakeholders with a vested interest in the success of the LRP and the district will trust the community to financially support the schools.

Asking for temporary fix at this time when it is truly not needed only adds to the distrust and resentment. Like I said, it is counterproductive.

I wonder if the people wanting two new schools would vote yes if the 1st one was built in mid town and it would be at least five years before they built one in the NE? I realize they need a school in the NE although it seems to me that when they started building in the NE they knew there was no schools in their area. So now everyone is supposed to pay extra taxes to build a school in the part of town that as of a few years ago there was no need for one there. My vote is fix the ones we have and if any new ones are built they are built in the areas they closed the two schools first. The NE should be the last one built.

The reality is, apple, those who feel they have been ignored will not be willing to cooperate and collaborate with those who they believe have ignored them until they realize they are in a new culture/environment. Realize, since you live in the perceived affluent NE, you will have to suck it up and drop all the aggressive talk about hating other areas of town.

You keep talking about taking the high road and being "for the community." Quit talking about it and start doing it. That means stop insulting people and making jokes in poor taste and start engaging people in discussions. Start listening and having some empathy - you don't have to enable victims but it costs nothing to be nice. Honey works better tha vinegar.

Dr. B, relating to your 10:01 post...That is why St. Joseph finds itself in the vicious circle it is in. There have long been stories of city fathers coming close to getting a major plant, and then choosing not to opt for the major plant, just a satellite, because of what it might have cost in infrastructure. But the problem is...if there is not a job to shoot for, there is no reason to work for it. The student with drive and ambition usually leaves town--where the money is. I'm often reminded of a story of a railroad worker, who had a job when the railroad was going good here. That worker, doing the same job in Kansas City, would have received THREE times the pay. He stayed in St. Joseph and I really don't know why. All too often a senior in high school might be employed in a job during high school and have that same job l0 years later. Until we get past opening new restaurants and telemarketing firms as industry, the problem will continue.

apple - I, along with another TF member, at the final TF meeting, were unanimously asked by the TF to lead the long range planning effort (it was a real unanimous vote with many from the community with differing opinions present). Since I disagree with you, would it be okay for me to exclude you from the community engagement process? That is exactly what your philosophy is suggesting I do.

Think about how you would feel/react being told, sorry, you don't agree with me, you aren't allowed to have any influence in this process but will have to abide by our decisions and it will impact your children and your bank account.

It sounds like we have very similar backgrounds. I know quite well the nature of the people you describe. They were some of my friends and the parents of some of my friends. 10 years ago, I thought similar to the way you think now. Life experience tells me we all go down a different path for a reason and we all have the free will to choose the past that we believe is best for us - good or bad. I have found that judging the decisions people make provided little benefit, but understanding why someone made a decision is quite helpful in understanding them - and we can only achieve that by listening and talking respectfully.

It seems as what happened to you in your community you left behind as well as your parent not helping you pay for school has made the person you are today and cannot let go of your own issues.It also seems as you look down on the community you grew up in as well as your own parents even though the raised you,clothed you, made sure you were feed,you made something out of yourself and now chose to look down on people.although we moved away from the southend of town we stand behind people where we are from.Apple my home is not a rental and I keep my lawn and home looking as good as the homes in the northeast and mind you my home is around 10 years old and all that is between the ne and the se is riverside road and a lot of different culture and attitude it totally different.People care on this end and are not judgemental.So apple you need to remember where you came from and stop being so judgemental and egrading of your own kind since you atated you did not come from money.I would also support biulding new schools but to replace the ones first that have been closed or ones in the shape such as Hall as ufc08 has said.See apple I am sure you will say this is just crazy because it does not bewnefit you first and you cannot agree with anyones ideas just your own.You are out of touch with reality and seemed to forgot where you came from.

Apple I done well for myself as well and glad you did to.I expect alot out of my life as well as my children and want the best for them.You just need to see people have different views and do care about their children and what they want from their schools for their children.People are not dumbs apple they do care as well as you do.But we can agree to disagree.

Dillygent1, I found that most of these stories are merely urban legends.

As to the railroad workers, most of them are represented by unions. I seriously doubt that they would have such differing pay scales in St. Joseph versus Kansas City.

Dr. B., You can dismiss what I said as folklore, but young people leaving for better job opportunities, people seeking better salaries and better working conditions is
NOT folklore. The part I said about the teenager having the same job l0 years later, I have seen many times. This town does not pay well. It pays better than many smaller communities around it, but it does not pay well. I know of a teacher who left a few years ago, for a job in K.C. with an immediate raise of l5 thousand dollars a year. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss what St. Joe's salaries and working conditions are. The teacher gave this as a reason to leave. He told me, himself.