Wow, I didn't even know about this!

I'm new to St. Joseph and this is my first time living in a city. I come from Chillicothe, which is relatively small compared to this place.

Is this an actual strike? Isn't it dangerous for a fire department in a town the size of St. Joe to strike? I mean, if fires broke out that are you usually covered by No. 77, wouldn't they be more likely to be put out with minimal damage of other departments didn't have to cover the area?

I know next to nothing about these things, though, they might have volunteers in place? I don't know. I'm not really judging, just asking.

I wish they would come to a conclusion on this, though. It irritates me that the city is dragging their feet on this. Firefighters do very important, very dangerous jobs and it's not fair to skimp them on wages...

First off they cannot go by indeed.com for wages. It is not accurate. Second, this is pretty sad. I would like to know more, like the figures they are asking for. I mean, I always believe firefighters have never made near enough. Maybe the City Manager woukld like to goon a few fire calls with them to see what they really face.

Our firefighters deserve more then what they are getting for protcting us and our homes,businesses and for all of the rest they do.Also our city manager should be working with these firefighter to get this resolved not spending so much time with his little fights with the mayor.Oh I am sure he is one of 100,000 dollar guys that does not really care about his employees.
I agree with ksmith maybe he should go on a few fire calls with these guys and see how hard their job is and how much they actly do.

Why aren't you all complaining about police officers' wages? They make, last time I knew, around $28K on the first year, and then I think around $31K after their first year.

Are you telling me a fireman, who has a VERY small work-to-play ratio deserves $10K more a year than someone we have determined needs a gun for their job?

Are you serious? Get your heads out of the sand - there is most likely a bit of stubbornness from both parties here.

I can't believe fireman are even complaining first of all - do they have any idea what kind of freaking economic climate we're in? They're lucky to even HAVE jobs, and this city could go under any minute.

On the other hand, it's unfair for the city to make promises it cannot keep.

In any case - knock if off with the, "fireman deserve more" crap. They do very little firefighting or first responding compared to how many hours they are actually being paid for.

We're supposed to give these guys grips of money for racing Heartland ambulances to accidents? For sitting around 160 out of 180 hours?

Get over it. I agree, it's rough getting lied to but you need to be thankful you're freakin' making $36K a year. That's a good wage in this city for non-manufacturing work. Even if you were doing that at a manufacturing plant, you'd be putting in 60 hour weeks to see $36K plus.

Knock it off firemen - you're supposed to be in this for the love of it. I understand you need to make a living but don't even go there because I guarantee a good majority are living way beyond their means and they NEED that money to pay off crap they never should have bought and now it's supposed to be my problem? I don't think so.

UNBELIEVABLE!!!! St. Joseph firefighters are grossly underpaid!!! It's really sad when firefighters from towns/cities one-third the size of St. Joseph start out making more than St. Joe firefighters. COME ON CITY WAKE UP THESE PEOPLE SAFE LIVES!!!!!

the firefighters are standing on a very weak case when you compare the wages made by our police officers. ( hope i wasn't addressing lord in that comment since i am forbidden to do so.....rotflm-o )

typical of the cm to spend unspecified dollar amounts on an out of town attorney to thwart the negotiation process.

Again in 2001 the citizens of this city voted in a tax to pay all city employees at 90% of market value of comparable cities. How can the cities listed in the article be comparable. I know of some firefighters that have been working for four or five years and are still making the entry level pay rate. Come on people! I doubt the firefighters are asking for the world, just what was promised to them by the citizens of this great city.

Welocome to St Joe people..The city who does not stand behind anything they say or promise..Who has a city council which cannot accomplish anything worth writing about and has city officials who fight like little kids...I feel horrible and embarassed for these men and women who risk their lives daily to protect us and are living on such low wages...I am sickened that my tax money cannot go more to help them out...Just about as much as I am sickended that this city does not support children or our education system...Another issue I have is why is my tax payer money hiring lawyers from out of town??..Do we not have lawyers here in town to hire to be on this case?...Can our money not stay here?..Reminds me of where I just read where our city wants to purchase some new city vehicles from an out of town car lot with my tax money..What about local car lots, local owners who pay taxes here in this city?...This city needs a real wake up call or we are going down real fast people....

Have any city employees had a pay adjustment since the last election? This mayor and council don't like paying their workers. Several years ago there was an effort to bring all city employees up to 90% of parity. But then a year later we got a new mayor and council and the pay issue fell flat, they would rather spend big bucks downtown. This isn't the way the voters of St Joe wanted things.

LOD, Maybe we should schedule all house fires to occur between the hours of 8:00am and 5:00pm then we would only need 1- shift and try to improve that work/play ratio. While we are at it we should schedule car accidents, indusrial accidents , and fires to the same timeframe. They wouldn't be so overpaid if they were getting your child out of your burning house or prying your a$$ out of the twisted metal that used to be your car.
According to the article the city hasn't even made a proposal so you can't say the firefighters are being stubborn here.

First the salary numbers in this article aren't "exactly" correct. SJFD's average is probably right, but the other departments listed is their starting pay, not average pay. Next, the firemen haven't had a raise in 3 years I believe, not even cost of living, even when it was voted on by the people to give them raises. The city can't afford to pay them because they hired more city employees, such as nature center workers, which ate up the budget for the firemen's raises. Lastly, there is no mention that the city just increased the amount they must pay for health insurance, about $1000/month for a family. How is that affordable on 36K a year (33% of their salary).

It is true that firemen aren't always busy, but it's a high stress job. Nobody can operate at 100% of the time in high stress, as our soldiers. Next, they are there when called upon. They aren't racing ambulances anywhere, if it's a serious call they are called as first responders, as there are more fire stations in town than ambulances.

Do cops need more money? Yes, but from what I hear they have a better deal than the firemen.

So if you are complaining that you don't want to them to have a raise, put a big sign in your yard that you don't want their help or you only want them to help you about 50% worth.

I would like to start off saying that nobody is even aware that the police are negotiating a new contract as well. They deserve more pay along with firefighters, but for anyone to talk down at firemen for wanting more money and not the cops, shame shame. secondly, people should be aware that firemen are paid to "be prepared" for anything. I have driven by many places and have seen them training a countless number of times. I always see the police sitting on the side of the road off in the grass or in a parking lot talking to other officers. Whats the difference in that and firemen sitting in they're houses. they are both waiting for an emergency that they have been properly trained to handle. I've been through a fire and it's easy for people to say, "thats all they do is sit around", but wait till it happens to you, or a member of your family. Think about it! All of the cities listed are smaller than St. Joe and are not even comparible.

Sounds like "libertyordeath" is mad at the world. Why don't you go through the classes and training, get hired, work for a few years without a raise, that you were promised, then get back with us. Fire or police.

I also think R.J. Cooper needs to do a little better research before he writes his articles. It's funny the citizens seem to know more about the subject than he does.

R.J's article is pretty good, the salaries just need to be clarified a little more. I like the analogy of buying a house without knowing the price.

I think the biggest misconception about Any public service job is that they aren't doing anything. They are reactive jobs and not proactive. In order to have the correct reaction you must train just like an athlete to have the correct "muscle memory". Cops go to the shooting range and take other classes, firemen learn better rescue techniques and first responder medicine, heck I think most of them are EMT's which requires a different kind of training that they have to do outside of work. LibertyOrDeath doesn't understand much about the rescue world.

@carefulc
Did I misread the article, I didn't notice anywhere that the firefighters are wanting more money. I thought it stated they are wanting a contract proposal from the city. I would hope that the proposal would include a raise. Two totally seperate issues. Doesn't sound out of line to me. You have to have a proposal before arguing the terms.

LibertyOrDeath you're comment that firefighters should do their job for the "love of it" is the most foolish thing i've ever heard in my entire life. Does anybody expect you to do your job for the "love of it"? No, you expect to get paid like everybody else.
Firefighters and Police Officers are paid to be ready to go in case of an emergency. They're like an insurance policy. I know that if the mayor and some of the citizens in this town had their way they'd have the police and fire employees patching potholes in their down time, but that's not practical.
Also, the main point here as far as I'm concerned isn't whether or not police or fire gets a raise. To me the issue is that the city officials lied to the people of this town in order to pass a tax. When that tax came to be voted on the city told the people that the money would go towards pay raises for the fire department. The people voted yes on that basis. Then as soon as it passed the city used that money for something else. They just said what they needed to get the tax hike and then used the money how they wanted, not how the people voted. That's called lying!
What a lot of people don't understand is that this city is sitting on a lot of money. People keep bringing up the current economy saying these guys are lucky to even have jobs, but that doesn't hold true here. This city has a lot of money just laying around. There is no reason they shouldn't pay their employees properly. Police and Fire will continue to do their jobs and do them well regardless of the wages they get paid.
I also find it interesting that people complain about giving police and fire pay raises, but nobody bats an eye when the city manager gives himself a pay raise.
The current council and city officials have some explaining to do as far as I'm concerned, but I'm not going to hold my breath while i wait for an explanation.

The public should be provided the details of the benefits that the firefighters are requesting. A few questions come to mind here: (1)how many fires do our firefighters actually respond to in a year? (2)If it were not for them being first responders, duplicating what our ambulance service already does, they wouldn't actually have anything to do, true? (3) Has the city ever considered making the firefighters shifts 8 hours as most other jobs?

Our firefighters do not respond to skyscraper fires, the talkest building in town is what 10 or 12 stories. They do little compared to other fire departments and they are always whining about not being paid enough. Wasn't most of them trained on the job or provided training at the expense of the taxpayers? How many jobs are there out there that you can get paid for sleeping? Come on give me a break.

Give me a break!! The article doesn't mention any "whining about pay". They are asking for a contract propopsal from the city, for nine months now! If the city wants to lowball them then just do it instead of stonewalling the whole process. I love how people assume the firefighters are wanting the moon when what they really want is to get some kind of proposal from their employer. Spend 30 seconds and read the article, Geesh!!

interestedparty, do you really believe that fires are only dangerous when they're in skyscrapers?

SJFD is the third busiest fire department in Missouri, ranking behind St. Louis and KCMO. They do not duplicate what the ambulance does. The ambulance folks don't extricate people from car wrecks, and often assist the ambulance in carrying patients and assist in serious medical situations that a team of two paramedics can't handle. As I stated earlier, fire serves as 1st responders because there are more fire stations than ambulances in town. If there is not an ambulance crew available they help stabilize the patient, until an ambulance can get there. They are completely invaluable in to the EMS system in St. Joe.

By the way, it doesn't matter how big the building is, a fire is a fire and equally dangerous. I'm not a fire fighter for a reason. Hot burning buildings don't appeal to me. A chimney can fall and crush you or you can fall through a floor. Skyscrapers have sprinkler systems and thus are less dangerous than a house.

I'm not sure how one departments duties compared to another is possible, unless you have worked at both. And no, our fire fighters had to have fire 1, fire 2 and I believe depending on when hired 1st responder or EMT all on their own dollar. KCMO trains all of their fire fighters.

They aren't whining, they are asking for the city to uphold the contract that they agree to several years ago.

taxedout- i agree and shouldn't assume firemen r asking for more money. sorry. Interestedparty- 8 hr. shift huh? what happens to the city after 5? No fire protection, No helping Heartland crews with lifting, or getting to an ems call and starting bls (basic life support) when all the ambulances are in use and the next one is coming from savannah to help. What do the people do after 5? How does risking your life at one of st. joe's fire scenes differ from other fire depts. fire scenes. Fire is fire, wherever you are.

Taxedout, maybe you should try reading the article. According to the firefighters attorney "the city hasn't offered it firefighters a wage proposal". Why the wage comparison if this isn't about money? Are you that naive to think this is about anything else than money?

Mikehawk: I understand that any fire can be dangerous, but come on how many fires are there is St. Joe a year? I am not saying that there job is dangerous, or that they don't do a good job. But for the volume of work they do i think that they are overrated. Lets see some statistics on fires!

Have either one of you ever watched a council meeting on the city channel and see how disrespectful the president of the fire union is? If he serves as the spokesperson for all firefighter then it is understandable as to why the city is dragging their feet.

So interestedparty, did you happen to catch the last meeting where a city police officer not only was disrespectful, but disrespectful to a tax paying citizen? Telling that gentleman who moved here from texas that him and his family were dumb. I have never seen the pres. of local 77 direspect a citizen. By the way, it only takes one fire to kill a crew of firemen.

Again (trying to use little easy words) you can't fight about money if you don't have a proposal on the table. If the city thinks it's firefighters are overpaid then give them a proposal as such. They are not even to that point, unlike many are who post on here.

I just want to know if the city cannot afford to pay their employees, no matter what department. Then why are we spending so much money on all of these pet projects. The city came up with 1.25 million this year for the chiefs traing camp, extra money for the civic arean, and the list can go on and on. Its great to spend the money on these projects, but who do you think protects all the people that are here for the training camp, or the people that take care of the civic areana. It's the employees of this city, the ones that are asking for fair negotiations with the city.

Why do we compare the pay of firefighters to police? I don’t see a ton of people heading down town to city hall to volunteer to risk their lives for either one of these thankless positions. They currently make less than $16.00 per hour. Leaving their family for holidays, birthday, and other events just to run to false alarms, to save someone who jumps from a bridge and yes stop a fire that most likely you caused. Before you attack the firefighters remember obviously you won’t do the job or you would be working at the fire station. Since you are not; how about not making comments about a profession you know nothing about.

Why can't the union make a wage proposal? Is this the strict province of the city?

Also, remember these guys also get a very generous pension package. The Whiner in Chief, Shawn Henderson, is collecting a police pension while earning a fire department pension. The amount of the monthly pension payment is guaranteed by the taxpayers. Also these guys get enough downtime to often have other money making ventures.

The City has to make and decide priorities. To the chagrin of Shawn Henderson, it actually spends money on other priorities, things like sewers, roads, economic development, etc. And don't you know that the fire fighters in their guise as first responders will work some angle to be present at the Chief's training camp.

The pension is far from generous.

City employees have to pay $1,000 a month for family medical insurance. St Joe should be embarassed that that is how it takes care of its employees.

Firefighters also work 56 hours a week with no overtime pay.

The comment about Shawn is way out of line. He earned the small pension he gets and paid for his firefighter training out of his own pocket. Maybe if the city had decent pay a guy that put that many years on the job could just retire and not have to work another job.

40% of final pay after just 20 years is pretty generous. In the private sector he would still be working and would not have a guaranteed amount. Anymore they would, if at all, just contribute to a 401k or something like that.

By the hour standard you state, I work many more hours with no overtime. Most of us don't get to count the time we're sleeping.

drbjr don't forget the nights the firemen are up all night fighting fire. I read in the paper all the time that there were a couple fires over a period of 24hrs. Just out of curiosity, how many hrs. a week do you work? Even so, your workday ends and you go home to your family . It might be only for a short slumber, but your home. If the pension is so wonderful you should look into taking some classes and apply for the posistion of firefighter. Shawn Henderson decided to retire from the police dept. after he put his required years of service in and then decided to keep serving and protecting his community, and as far as I can tell he does one hell of a job. The City of Saint Joseph is an equal oppurtunity employer. Why don't you give it a shot drbjr?

I am a career firefighter at the end of my 30+ year career. Firefighting in St Joe isn't dangerous?, you got to be kidding. I have had two major surgical repairs for serious on the job injuries. There is about 1 very bad house per week in ST Joe and here is a film of a small fire.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPyrJbKJpIY.
I've gone into rooms like that and some much worse ... many many times.
The city is NOT bargaining in good faith, I will never see the benefit of this negotiation but this pay structure penalizes everyone that is promoted. The city adopted a Matrix pay scale years ago that is in reality a pay cut for everyone promoted. The Matrix was some elaborate pay plan that isn't easy to understand. The Matrix raises have long ago been abandoned, but the lower Matrix pay at promotion remains. There is no way to catch up to other firefighters and newly promoted will always be paid much less than those not promoted. In other words a permanent pay cut at promotion.
Lucky to have a job, you bet. Screwed by creative bookkeeping..absolutely.

I'd like to add this. The police make a few % more than firefighters, although the pays are quite similar. Since not just firefighters but also Police are subject to this Matrix pay plan, it is entirely possible that the pay of the police is skewed lower by having many younger officers. The Matrix is particularly unfair and punitive to any one hired in the last 9 years.

Supposedly the city pays it's fire and police approx. 65% of the market wage but pays other department employees over 100%. If this is the case I can see why the police and fire personnel are a little upset. They are the ones doing the high risk, high stress jobs. The city needs to step up to the plate. These men and women should be the ones we are willing to pay well to be prepared but at the same time hope none of us need them.

This discussion has been gratifying because there are obviously people who do understand & annoying because there are so many myths out there. So as a TAX PAYING citizen who is also the wife of a firefighter, these are my observations. The city asked for a tax and received a tax to fund a pay matrix for employees, then illegally abandoned that matrix. Instead the city spends money on out of town lawyers who recommend that the city pays them high fees to stonewall the union firefighters. As a citizen, I say that we already have lawyers that can do the embarassing job of ignoring our employees' requests for negotiation. They will not even discuss it, forcing the union to hire their own big city lawyer, who is a reasonable & pleasant guy. Unfortunately, they cannot afford to pay Mr. Bukaty to attend every council meeting and most of the time the city council gets stuck being disrepected by the current union president who is a big big doodiehead (sorry, I have been told I can't cuss here, so I am compromising) who does not know how to speak in public unless it is in his outside dumb voice. Sorry, I can't do anything about him, but please try to look past him at all the guys who are doing the hard job of firefighting in this city and cannot even get a civil committed conversation about wages and benefits from an elected or paid official of the city they protect. Yes, they get paid a good wage. Yes, they are lucky to have jobs in these hard times. No, their wages are not equitable. No, they do not race ambulances-what kind of idiot would believe that-you need to contact your city officials and see just exactly what the first responder program is and isn't.
Over the last several years of our marriage and life with children, we have learned to deal with daddy missing Christmas & birthdays & games & emergencies. We have also learned to deal with daddy being sleep deprived because he had to go out to a fire, a drunk driving accident or even to do a CO check in the middle of the night (or lots of CO checks over & over). We deal with it because HE LIKES IT & it finally pays a decent wage compared to the poverty level we started with at the beginning. The insurance program is lousy, has always been lousy & keeps getting worse, but it is what he has-we pay for a different insurance policy for me & the kids because we don't want to pay what they are asking & we don't want to be restricted to doing our doctoring in St Joseph.
So, are we glad he has a job & do we feel lucky that he has a job he likes that pays fairly well? Yes. Do we think conditions could be better & are we tired of hearing that daddy gets paid for sleeping & watching tv all day & night? Yes! Because he does very very little of either! So I would suggest that you take all of your opinions, one way or the other, to a city council meeting & tell them to quit wasting city money on out of city lawyers & sit down & negotiate & quit wasting money.

Well YOUR lawyer is always a reasonable and pleasant guy. It is ALWAYS the other lawyer that is a SOB.

The union has a lawyer that does these deals for a living, day in day out. What is wrong with the City having the same? Wouldn't it be foolish for our elected officials to use a lawyer who knew nothing about this area?

How was abandoning the matrix illegal? The tax increase did go to additional salaries. They ran out of money. Is there some law banning the city from abandoning the matrix? If so, could you please tell us about it.

As to insurance, the city's firefighter live in the real world, sort of. If they were in the private sector, their type of pension would have long ago been abandoned. They would be under real wage pressure to keep costs down. Years ago their insurance (which is different than worker's comp which covers their on the job injuries) would have been changed.

I'm still waiting on an answer to my question last night. Why can't the union make a wage proposal?

Hey, drbjr, I was just stating my opinion as a voting taxpayin citizen. Don't like it? Go start www.drbjr.com and make sure I can't sign up to state my opinion there.

I'll try to answer drbjr's question from last night. I would guess that the union can't make a proposal because the city won't even discuss this whole thing with them. What should they do, mail the city manager a letter with a proposal? How about the city put on their big boy pants and sit down with them? Or they could waste taxpayer money and hire an out of town big shot lawyer to continue to stonewall the process. I would guess that Capell has a deep hatred for the collective bargaining process in general and likes to be a dictator on such matters.

I feel that the fire department and police department are the 2 most important departments in a city. The city should forgo other projects requiring expense until both of these departments are running in top speed & satisfaction. In fact, I wish the city would bring back the traffic (police) division, maybe if they passed out more tickets people would drive a bit safer.

I didn't say you couldn't express your opinion. I just expressed mine (which you obvisously don't like). How about answering my questions? You make certain statements like "then illegally abandoned that matrix" without a shred of authority. Can you please back up your statement?

taxedout, why not? They have their fourth session set next week. Send the city a fax. Put something on the table. The union sued the city not the other way around. They started this fight so should the city just back down?

From reading the article, I would conclude the city has discussed a number of things but just not wages. The city's ability to negotiate on wages probably depends on the work rules. Without an agreement on the work rules, the city can't make an intelligent offer on wages.

State law - collective bargaining - city must negotiate in good faith. That is why the union sued. The city will talk about work but NOT anything to do with money(pay, insurance, retirement). Won't even discuss! Is this "good faith" that state law requires? Was it illegal to freeze the matrix? Technically no. It was a lie to taxpayers. If the matrix is froze then why does the city still use it's steps when people are promoted? Lets say a top paid captain gets $50,000. He retires and a driver gets promoted to captain. His new pay will be about $5000 less - or $45,000. With the matrix frozen he will never go any higher. THE CITY just saved $5000 and the pay for the fire dept. falls farther behind the 90% promised when the matrix passed. This happens at all ranks within the fire and police depts. The workers are falling farther behind and the city uses the money on new positions across the city or on pet projects.

Good faith is a term subject to a wide range of interpretations. The union went off and filed the lawsuit so I'm sure that slowed any progress.

If a captain retires with say 25 years and a 20 year employee gets promoted to his job, reason stand to say that he will not get the same pay as he did not have the same amount of time in grade, etc.

The reason for the existence of the city, Shawn Henderson's beliefs to the contrary, is not solely to provide firefighters with all the pay and benefits they want.

Maybe we should consider outsourcing the fire department to these guys:

http://www.ruralmetro.com/

I've seen the job they do and it is good.

The fire dept does NOT have "time in grade" pay NOW. That is what the matrix provided for. BUT since it was froze it is no more. His job requirements are the same so he should be able to attain the same wage. Longevity pay was eliminated when the matrix was passed. Open your mind and you will understand. The employees are falling farther behind with every retirement. It would not cost the city any more money to promote to the same wage. At the very least wait a year (probationary period) then to the same wage as the retiree was making. As it is the city is saving money on every retirement and the employees are losing. Whatever you want to say DOESN'T change that fact.

I'm all for the fire department getting a raise. The police dept. when they work for maybe then.

They get COLAs right?

Also, I would bet a good sum of money that the lawsuit by the union is coordinated with their international and the other locals across the state.

I'll take that bet. You want to pay up now? And remember - you said a good sum of money. I'd give you my address to send the cash to but I doubt you would pay up. The IAFF or the Mo State Council of FF has NOT gotten involved. Capell hired an out of town union busting lawyer to break Local 77. IF and I said IF the international would step in Capell would back down and at least talk "in good faith". The international has deep pockets and he does not have enough taxpayer money to fight a losing battle. He would have to sit down and explain why the city has added over 70 new personnel since the matrix tax was passed. That is the reason why the city cannot keep their promise to the taxpayers or the employees. Don't let facts get in your way though.

And no they don't get COLAs. The retirees are suppose to get cost of living increases and they usually do but it is not guaranteed. The city employees get raises when the city manager decides to give them one. None this year and he said probably none the next couple years. COLAs were suppose to be included in the matrix but was left out after the tax passed. Imagine that!

The city council has changed dramatically since the matrix idea was adopted. Folks often forget that elected officials are often not bound to keep the "promises" of their predecessors.

The city has various priorities. The council has the ability and right to change them. If you don't like this then don't work for the city, state or federal governments.

Just look at the International's website. They are a political organization as evidenced by the fact the first button across the top is "politics and legislation". What is their first legislative priority ... "collective bargaining". Look at the Missouri Council website, all politics. If you really believe these folks aren't telling Travis and the boys what to do then I'll be right over to sell you a bridge.

You have been proven wrong by facts on just about everything. I guess if you feel a certain way about something then to heck with the facts. I never said they were not about politics. Matter of fact I dislike 95% of their politics. I said they have not been involved - which is a fact. If you have proof otherwise then lets see it. O, wait a minute - you don't deal with facts. I'm done with you and your factless diatribe. And by the way. If you pass a tax for a specific purpose that is what it is suppose to be used for. Don't matter if the council is different or not. Go to the people and ask for a tax for their "new" ideas. It won't pass because the city does NOT keep its promises. The tax was passed to keep services the same and to increase city workers pay to 90% market average. PROMISE TO WORKERS AND TAXPAYERS BROKEN! Did you think that might be why there is a new council. People are tired of Capell and all the wasteful spending being done by the council. More then likely you will see another big turnover on the council - and probably a new city manager in the next couple of years.

drbjr,

Point to the doll and tell us all where that mean old union firefighter touched you.
You probably think you are the only one worth any substantial raise in the whole city, and poo-poo on anyone else getting a raise. The firefighters can't even get the Fuehrer (Capell) to negotiate!!

So why wouldn't the city negotiate on a obviously unfair wage situation. Make cutbacks if necessary but don't cheat with a backhand pay cut. Oh yeah this matrix thing was probably a Capell brain child,... so where is he on the matrix thing, about $130,000 +. Seems the matrix was good to him.

The city is trying to break the union by refusing to negoiate, that is a plain and simple fact, bsbuster. They will not discuss wages based on their high high dollare lawyer's advice. It says that right in the article. They are spending taxpayer dollars to make city employees miserable rather than negoiating in good faith. The worst part of this is that most firefighters are city taxpayers so their money is going towards fighting their union. The city is not asking for wage concessions, they are simply not saying anything, just doing piddly crap like trying to get the union's lawyer disqualified from the court case, as described in the article. I don't know about you, but I don't want to waste money on this kind of crap, whether it is negoiations with the firefighters union or any other union.

It is not ONLY fire and police employees that are being hurt in this scenario. ALL city employees have been hurt (emotionally and financially). Some of the most "out-of-pay-range" employees after the pay matrix collapse are city workers not in police and fire. They are hurt and upset and frustrated and getting poorer by the minute. They just can't hire lawyers to fight the fight. They just continue to come to work every day. Some have left for better paying jobs with better benefits, but in this town that is hard to do, so those who leave, usually also move away, taking their tax dollars with them. It is a sad situation, at best, for everyone involved. Hopefully, it will be resolved soon.

After reading these comments, it is obvious that the city still lies to its employees, even after it got in trouble almost 12 years ago for "lieing" about top wages a firefighter could get. According to the then City HR director, to get the top stated salary, a firefighter would have to work at ST. Joe fire for something like 125 years!! IMPOSSIBLE (the exact number may be off, I forget after 12 years, but it was longer than the average life span) The article also only talked about starting wages for firefighters in other cities. I know for a fact, since I left St. Joe fire and went to work at Central Jackson County Fire, aka Blue Springs fire, the starting salary may be $36,000, but after 3 years, and additional classes, you are being paid about $53,000 a year, and between 85% and 90% of our calls are not fire calls, they are medical calls (Although we do also run the ambulance service for the city). Plus if you are a paramedic, you get an additional $6000 bonus. ST. Joe is notorius for the way they treat all their city employees, and if it were not for the fire fighters local 77 union, fighting for the benefit of the firefighters, the rest of the city employees would be in a lot worse situation than they currently are, because if the firefighters get something, such as a raise, the rest of the city employees also get one, thanks to local 77's efforts.

drbjr
September 25, 2009 at 11:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Maybe we should consider outsourcing the fire department to these guys:

http://www.ruralmetro.com/

I've seen the job they do and it is good.

So instead of using tax dollars to pay city employees who in return spend that money within the community. You'd rather outsource the job to Rural Metro and send our tax dollars to Scottsdale, Arizona?
drbjr, you just need to keep your mouth shut while the grown ups are talking.

mikehawk, just where do you think the employees of RuralMetro would live? They would live here not commute in from Scottsdale. So since salaries are the largest component of the budget, most of the money would stay here.

They run a profit margin of 1.01%.

Obviously you are unwilling to debate with any facts whatsoever.

you know you're right. i'm sure rural metro's corporate office doesn't charge any sort of fee to oversee the operations. they do it for free. so none of our tax dollars will go to scottsdale, arizona. i guess i didn't see the part on of their web site that explained their willingness to run a business with no interest in profit. maybe we should go with them. the city firefighters want more money and this rural metro joint will do it for free.
and it's funny that you should bring up facts. every argument you've made thus far has been lacking any sort of factual information. out2hunt has taken every one of your arguments and exposed it for being errant in one way or another. it's obvious that you are not interested in facts. you want everyone to believe your made up ramblings, and take your side because you have some beef with the city's police and fire employees.
i just happen to believe that when our city officials ask us to vote on a tax to give those guys a raise, and we vote yes, that money should be used for that. Instead it's been scattered around to all sorts of little pet projects. the fact is (i know this won't interest you because it's a fact) the council lied! Had that money been used for raises, as it was intended when we voted, we wouldn't be in the current situation.